Tami Simon: Hello, friends. My nameߴs Tami Simon, and Iߴm the founder of Sounds True, and I want to welcome you to the Sounds True Podcast, Insights at the Edge. I also want to take a moment to introduce you to Sounds Trueߴs new membership community and digital platform. Itߴs called Sounds True One. Sounds True One features original premium transformational docuseries, community events, classes to start your day and relax in the evening, special weekly live shows, including a video version of Insights at the Edge with an after-show community question and answer session with featured guests. I hope youߴll come join us, explore, come have fun with us, and connect with others. You can learn more at join.soundstrue.com.
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In this episode of Insights at the Edge, my guest is Clay Routledge, PhD. Clay is a leading expert in existential psychology. Heߴs the Director and Vice President of Research at the Human Flourishing Lab at the Archbridge Institute, and heߴs co-editor of Profectus, an online magazine on human progress and flourishing. Clay is a highly cited researcher whoߴs published more than a hundred scholarly papers, and his work has been cited by many media outlets, including the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Atlantic, and more. With Sounds True, Iߴm proud to say that Clay is the author of a new book. Itߴs called Past Forward: How Nostalgia Can Help You Live a More Meaningful Life. Clay, welcome to Insights at the Edge.
Clay Routledge: Thank you for having me. Itߴs great to be on.
TS: Of course. I want to talk about nostalgia, the power of nostalgia in our lives, and your new book, Past Forward. But before we get there, thereߴs a topic really important to me that I want to start our conversation by addressing, which has to do with what youߴve discovered at the Human Flourishing Lab about what supports our sense of agency. I know that agency is an important aspect of existential psychology. How do we help people feel like they have choice and that they can put their energy into something that will move themselves, their community, and our culture forward?
And I wanted to start here, because I think right here at this moment in time, during this conversation, a lot of people feel a sense of helplessness. They feel like, “Nothing I do really matters. Come on, look, Tami, warfare, climate destruction. Really? My agency matters?” So Iߴd love to know how you view that as an existential psychologist and what youߴve found at the Human Flourishing Lab that supports our sense of agency.
CR: Thank you for that question. Agency is at the center of a lot of the work I do. As you noted, itߴs an important component of existential psychology. One of the books that has most influenced my own research is Viktor Franklߴs Manߴs Search for Meaning, and an important observation that Frankl makes in his book, which is heߴs talking about a time in a concentration camp, Nazi concentration camp during World War II, is it can seem like in extreme circumstances like that, clearly you donߴt have agency, right? These are people that are being held against their will by violence and who are being executed. And what he noted was even in such circumstances when everything feels hopeless and you actually donߴt have a lot of freedom, you still control your own thoughts, whatߴs inside of your head. People canߴt get to that. And so at the core of agency is an appreciation for the capacity of the human mind and the human spirit, even when life seems horrible and even when so much feels like itߴs out of our control.
And I think starting there with that recognition of the incredible power of advanced human capacities, our brains. So neuroscientists might lay out all the ways in which our brains are highly sophisticated and involve all of these structures and processes that make us an especially intelligent organism, but more conversationally, we can all recognize that weߴre a reflective species. We can think, and we can direct our thoughts inward, we can figure out what we want to do with our lives, we can focus on our goals. And thatߴs all very, very important for acknowledging our agency. Itߴs often what I call the meaning mindset. So a critical feature of living a meaningful life is starting with that awareness that Frankl pointed out, that we have to believe in our ability to live meaningful lives. We have to believe in our psychological freedom, that people cannot control our thoughts, our values, what we care about, what we want to focus our attention on.
So all thatߴs really, really important. But connecting it to our work at the Human Flourishing Lab, one of the things that Iߴve discovered, and not just me, but a lot of researchers in this space have started kind of finding clues to support, is that it might seem counterintuitive, but even though itߴs important to start with our own thoughts, agency is very much about that mindset, we find agency out in the world through action. And so you have to get outside of your head. Itߴs good to start in your head to figure out what your priorities and goals are, but really what weߴre discovering is you feel the greatest sense of agency and the greatest sense of meaning in life when youߴre actually out there making a difference in other peopleߴs lives. So meaning is really about social significance, itߴs really about saying, “How do you know you matter?” “Well, I matter because Iߴm actually trying to improve the world. Iߴm trying to improve other peopleߴs lives.”
And you made a good point about how itߴs easy to look at some of the big global challenges we face and feel like, “Well, Iߴm just one little person here. What can I do?” And especially in our hyperconnected world, where weߴre online a lot, and we just see these things happening all over the world that seem horrible, itߴs easy to feel like, “Well, I can have no impact on that.” Itߴs good in those times to refocus on, “Well, what can you do?” Well, you can certainly make a difference in your own household, you can make a difference in your own community. And if you start there, then oftentimes you can scale up, you can think about how actions that start at home, that start in your neighborhood can spread beyond that.
But even if they didnߴt, thatߴs an important endeavor, is just working to improve your own life and the lives of people around you. And I think thatߴs really where agency is, itߴs in action. One of the projects weߴre working on at the Human Flourishing Lab is what we call agency in action, and itߴs a recognition of yeah, itߴs important to think about goals and priorities and values and all that, but putting those things into action is where youߴre going to see your life really matter. And thatߴs kind of whatߴs going to spark human flourishing.
TS: The image thatߴs occurring to me, unfortunately, is a landslide thatߴs coming down. And here I am as this little human agentic form, working on my own thoughts and attitudes, helping my community, but Iߴm still being caught in this landslide of death and destruction, and I just donߴt feel very hopeful. What would you say, that since my actions are, theyߴre not even, theyߴre a drop in a bucket that has a hole in it? Something like that.
CR: Yeah. Well, I mean, another thing that I think is interesting about agency is when you recognize your own agency and you start taking actions to exercise the agency, youߴre more likely to see the agency in others, which increases social trust, it increases cooperation. And so itߴs not just that Iߴm doing this and everything else is falling apart around me, if you ever want to have any hope of other people doing things and collaborating, cooperating, working together to improve the world, to advance progress in some way, it starts by recognizing they have agency too. And we have to see our own agency to recognize other peopleߴs agency, I think. And then the idea is to build a culture of agency, to be like, “Well, I canߴt do this by myself. We all need to work together to do this.” But I really think it starts at that low level. We have to build that sense of trust and hope kind of at a local level for it to spread outward.
TS: OK, building a culture of agency. I love that phrase. I couldnߴt help but pick up on it. Thatߴs what I want to help do, and I think that thatߴs what many listeners to Insights at the Edge want to help do. What do you recommend, if thatߴs our focus, thatߴs our value, thatߴs what we want to do?
CR: Well, I think one of the benefits of the action approach to agency, like I said, youߴre going to feel the most agentic and the most meaningful when youߴre actually doing things, not just sitting around thinking, but doing things. You got to get out of your head and out into the world. Well, then other people see that youߴre doing things, and theyߴre like, “Hey, if Clay can do things, I can do things.” And then I see you doing things, and Iߴm like, “Oh, you can do things too.” So I think just starting, taking action.
And so if you want a concrete example, maybe people are worried about… Iߴll give you an actual example, not a hypothetical. So I was watching the news one time, which I donߴt like to watch news, because itߴs like youߴre talking about, itߴs kind of depressing, itߴs one negative story after another. But sometimes in the news, they do these little positive stories, and they were showing this school, I canߴt remember what state it was, but they were showing this school in the United States that was having a real problem with violence in the school, teenage boys in particular. And some of it was gang-related, perhaps, but there was this real culture of kids getting into trouble, boys getting into fights, people getting kicked out of school, people not feeling safe, and it created this real culture of, it wasnߴt good for education.
And people were frustrated, because theyߴre like, “Well, the schoolߴs not doing enough, maybe the police arenߴt doing enough.” But then people are like, “Well, we donߴt really want the police in schools, police donߴt belong in schools.” And so how do you solve this? And then this group of dads, starting with this one dad, said, “Well, weߴll go in and help.” And Iߴm not suggesting this is the ideal solution, but they took it upon themselves to be like, “Well, maybe if there were more men around in the school, watching, mentoring, if seeing a fightߴs about to break off and intervening and modeling better behavior, then that would be a good way to reduce conflict and sort of change the culture in the school.”
And one dad started doing that, and then other dads started volunteering. And so this whole group of dads started essentially working as volunteers in a school to change the culture of violence in that school. So thatߴs a good example at a local level of people being frustrated, not knowing what the clear answer was, there clearly being trade-offs to different models. Understandably, there was some apprehension about, “Well, we should bring in police,” for instance. And so theyߴre like, “Well, what can we do? Well, we can do something ourselves as the dads. We can go in and try to supervise and try to offer not just surveillance, but intervention, seeing where conflicts are emerging and how they can deescalate them, and then maybe how they can mentor these boys to have a different response.”
And so I think thatߴs just a very small local example, but I think that you see stuff like that, and then oftentimes youߴll see that spread. Youߴll see something that starts off as a local phenomenon turn into a national movement where thereߴs chapters all over the country of people trying to do something. And so this was kind of the history of Mothers Against Drunk Driving, right? Itߴs like one mom started with a very tragic story and then ended up building this national movement to dramatically change not just our views, but the laws around drinking and driving.
And so I think all that requires doing something, trying. And sometimes attempts fail. Any successful entrepreneur will tell you that failure is very much part of it. But whatߴs important is getting out there and taking a shot and trying to spread that culture of ‘thatߴs what we have to do.’ Itߴs easy to sit around and complain about things, but if we want to make things better, weߴve got to get out there and have some skin in the game.
TS: All right. Clay, thank you for bringing your skin into the game through this conversation and the many conversations and the research and work youߴre doing at the Human Flourishing Lab. It was curious to me that in the center of all of the research that youߴve been doing the last 20-plus years, you decided to focus your writing on the topic of nostalgia, the power of nostalgia. And I was a little bit, at first, “Why? Why are we going back in order to move forward? I donߴt get this.” Tell me how your own interest in nostalgia developed.
CR: Itߴs a pretty interesting story. When I was in college, I started to become interested in the human appreciation and understanding of time. Iߴve always been into time travel movies and science fiction and things like that, but I was struck by this idea that the subjective experience of time, which is we can measure time quite precisely actually, but sometimes a moment will feel like itߴs longer than another. And so our experience of time has these other components that are perhaps non-objective. And so thatߴs really where I started thinking about, “Well, how do people experience time?”
And that was when I was an undergrad, and I started messing around with doing some experiments on that, that I didnߴt know what I was doing, so they werenߴt great. But then when I went to graduate school, I went into this direction thatߴs called existential psychology, which is really how do humans grapple with the big questions about the nature of existence and their place in the universe, and importantly, how does that affect our psychological functioning? What does it mean to be an organism that can ask these questions, and is that good for us, is that bad for us, and so forth?
And once again, the issue of time came up and, more specifically, a term called temporal consciousness. And so this is our ability to think about the future and the past. So one of the things that we think is unique to humans is we donߴt just live in the present, we donߴt just live in the moment, we sit around and we think about five years from now, ten years from now, twenty years from now, we think about tomorrow. And when I first started doing this research, I was very, very focused on that kind of future-oriented thinking. What does it mean to be an organism capable of thinking about the future? On the one hand, itߴs cool, right? Because I can plan for the future. I can be like, “Well, if I save money, I can do this. Or if I work hard, I can progress in my career goals. If I get up every day and I exercise, maybe eventually Iߴll be able to run a marathon.” So our ability to think about the future is very important for our ability to pursue goals.
But also, I thought an interesting component of this, itߴs also bad for us, because when we think about the future, oftentimes we get anxious, we get afraid, we think about horrible things that could happen to us. We think about what will ultimately happen to us, the ultimate existential challenge, which is our eventual mortality. And so I started thinking about that stuff, and there was a bunch of research on how our ability to think about the future can cause existential anxiety, and I was very interested in that.
But then I started thinking, well, itߴs not just that we think about the future and that makes us anxious, but we also think about the past, and these two things might actually be connected. If thinking about the future can make us anxious, maybe we turn to the past for comfort, to relieve that anxiety. And thatߴs really where I got started thinking about nostalgia. Is nostalgia, at least in part, a response to our ability to think about the future and the fears associated with that future? So the futureߴs often uncertain, we donߴt know whatߴs going to happen to us. Thereߴs all sorts of possibilities, good and bad, and maybe that uncertainty makes us seek some kind of comfort, some kind of stability in our lives, and thatߴs where our cherished memories come into play. And so thatߴs really how I started this was thinking about the future, and then that led me to, “Well, people think about the past.”
And then ultimately, that led me to thinking, “Well, actually is our thinking about the past really about the future?” It seems like a lot of people think of nostalgia often as some type of hiding in the past or some type of escapism, right? We are not satisfied in the present, so we look backwards to a time where maybe we feel like things were better, and that holds us back, that thatߴs kind of a barrier to fully living in the present. And what we started to discover was no, it might actually be the thing we need to help us figure out a way forward in our lives. And so now, Iߴve come to believe that this kind of past-oriented, future-oriented thinking are very, very related, that itߴs not weߴre either looking to the past or weߴre looking to the future, itߴs often weߴre doing both as a way to navigate the world.
TS: Well, I have to ask you this question, because a lot of the teachers and books that we publish at Sounds True focus on something like nowness. Theyߴre not interested particularly in projecting into the future and all the anxiety that comes with that or trying to make sense of the past or increase your sense of present time orientation to feel the most content. What do you think about that in terms of your own look at time? What about timelessness?
CR: Right. No, I think thatߴs definitely important as well, and I think that on the surface it might seem like theyߴre in conflict, but I think they go together quite well. Hereߴs one piece of research thatߴs interesting. So people looked at whatߴs the similarity and difference thatߴs between happiness and meaning in life? And what they found was that when happiness is really kind of a present-oriented state, “How are things going right now? Are you happy? Are you not happy?” Right? Whereas living a meaningful life, often it involves something deeper.
Now, meaning and happiness are positively correlated. Itߴs easier to feel like your lifeߴs meaningful when youߴre in a good mood than when youߴre in a bad mood. But we also know a lot of the most fulfilling things, the things that really give our life some deep meaning are difficult. They involve unpleasant emotions, they involve stress, they involve pursuing difficult goals, they involve making difficult choices, they involve some of the bittersweet elements of life. Sometimes, even tragic things serve as reminders of how precious our time is and how much we need to really live in the moment, as you noted. And so oftentimes, weߴre pursuing multiple motives. Wellbeing is complex. I believe in a holistic approach to wellbeing. Itߴs not just happiness, itߴs not just social connectedness, itߴs not just spirituality, itߴs not just one thing or another. It involves a whole bunch of things, because humans are complicated.
And so likewise, I think we need to live in the moment, we need to savor the moment. In fact, thereߴs research showing the more we do that, actually the more the things weߴre doing in the moment lead to nostalgia in the future. Like savoring experiences helps create the types of memories that you end up being nostalgic for later. But we donߴt just live in the moment. Like I said, humans are highly advanced. We can try to grab that moment. Well, we also have to, just as a function of the nature of our species, we have to plan for the future too, and we have to plan for the next moment, we have to plan for the next opportunity to savor. And so as weߴre sort of navigating that space between nowness and also being this more advanced temporal consciousness, I think nostalgia really comes into play in helping us figure out the path towards how we want to spend the next moment, how we want to spend the next year, how we want to spend the next five years. And within that, then we want to have these moments that we can really savor.
TS: In immersing myself in your work on Past Forward, I kept going into the memory bank, asking myself, “Is this a nostalgic memory? Is this not a nostalgic memory? How would I know?” What are the characteristics of memory that youߴd say, “Oh, thatߴs nostalgic, Tami. Thatߴs what Clayߴs pointing to?”
CR: Yeah. So one of the things that we did to get at that question, which was we went all over the world, actually. Weߴve done studies in dozens of nations now. We wanted to get a sense of what do people think is nostalgic? We can kind of define it in our own way at a theoretical level, but is there a consensus among ordinary people all over the world about what counts as nostalgia? And so weߴve done this in a number of ways to try to pinpoint this issue of whatߴs a nostalgic memory versus a non-nostalgic memory.
One thing we did is we just asked people to write down a nostalgic memory in a narrative form, and then weߴve used these kind of narrative analysis to sort of get a snapshot of what nostalgic memories tend to be versus having them write about other types, like autobiographical memories. So tell us about an ordinary life experience from the past versus tell us about an experience that makes you nostalgic.
And what we find is nostalgic experiences tend to be things that follow whatߴs called a redemptive sequence or have this kind of bittersweet element. So youߴve probably heard of nostalgia is sometimes a little bit sad, sometimes happy, and so itߴs this emotional cocktail. And often, this is the case, because when people share a nostalgic experience from their life, it isnߴt just a, “Oh, he did something fun one day.” There is a sense of accomplishment, or thereߴs something epic to it. “We went on this vacation. This happened, and we got rained out and we got stuck in the hotel or something like that, but then we ended up playing board games, and we ended up having this great time.” So oftentimes, thereߴs that kind of element to it.
Another feature of nostalgic narratives compared to ordinary events is they often, not always, but they often feature culturally meaningful experiences. So these are rites of passage or ceremonies, graduations, marriages or weddings, a birth of a child, special holidays, things like that. Things that are rarer than mundane events is another thing that characterizes them compared to ordinary experiences.
But centrally, people will recognize that a nostalgic meaning or a nostalgic memory is a personally meaningful memory, and what that means is thereߴs going to be a lot of variety because these are idiosyncratic. Whatߴs a special memory to you? You might have a special memory of going to an ice cream parlor with a parent or something like that, that someone else would be like, “That was just kind of an ordinary thing,” but to you it was special. So that specialness of it really matters. And so thatߴs one way weߴve looked at this. Weߴve had people write about it, and then weߴve kind of said, “Is there a general consensus all over of what people seem to think of nostalgia?” And obviously, itߴs not black and white. There is some ambiguity there.
But another way weߴve done it, which I think is really, really cool as well, is weߴve had people write down these nostalgic memories or write down other types of memories, and then weߴve taken those memories and weߴve made sure the word nostalgia is not in there and weߴve removed it if they do write the word nostalgia, and then weߴve given those stories to other people. And then weߴve asked them to read these, and weߴve asked them to tell us, “Is this a nostalgic or non-nostalgic memory?” And people are really, really good at getting it right.
Another way of saying this is people know nostalgia when they see it. Itߴs hard to define, itߴs hard to articulate, but if they read somebody elseߴs memory, theyߴre very, very accurate at telling you whether or not that was nostalgic to that person, which I think is another good evidence that there is, even though people might have a difficult time consciously explaining that, everyone kind of understands nostalgia when they see it.
TS: In searching my own memory bank for nostalgic memories to bring up to really understand how this is going to empower agency and meaning in my life, which is the point of your book, Past Forward, I often hit painful experiences like, “Oh, this was a nostalgic memory connected to a relationship that actually went south, went sour,” like, “Oh, God.” So now Iߴm going to discount that memory because it brings up the conflict or disappointment that also occurred. What do you do about that when youߴre working with nostalgia?
CR: Yeah. One of the ways I really, really saw that, what youߴre talking about, exemplified was when we first started doing this work. I was a professor. Well, I was doing this when I was in grad school, but when I first started doing this professionally as a PhD graduate professor, I was at the University of Southampton in the UK. And one of the first studies we did there when I was working on this is we went around neighborhoods in our city, and we collected nostalgic narratives from older British adults. These were people that were old enough, many of them, to have been children during World War II.
Now, Southampton where we lived, nearly 90% of that city was destroyed by German bombing during World War II. So you had a lot of people whose experiences as children were their dads being sent off to the continent to wage war against Germany, being separated even from their mothers, being sent to live out in the country with grandparents, seeing a lot of tragedy, a lot of disruption, a lot of separation in their lives.
And yet, interestingly, a lot of people chose to share memories from that time. When we asked them to share a nostalgic memory, they could have shared anything. We didnߴt say write about when you were a child during the German bombing of Southern England, but a lot of people chose to write about that. And what was interesting about that is that they acknowledged in these memories, I mean, they werenߴt sugarcoating it, they werenߴt pretending it was something great, they were saying this was a time of great upheaval, of great fear, of great tragedy. And yet in that experience, it was a reminder of what was important in life. Our family was really close. There were special moments in that time.
Now, fortunately, most peopleߴs nostalgic memories donߴt involve trauma or tragedy, but the point being that even in very, very difficult memories, if for some reason we feel a sense of nostalgia, if our mind goes back to those memories when weߴre looking to feel nostalgic, it often means, at least in my opinion, is thereߴs some important lessons tucked in there. It might not be an entirely positive memory, but thereߴs something in that time and that experience that we think is worthwhile, is worth remembering, worth holding onto. It might even help inspire us. So even experiences of loss, itߴs not uncommon to see people have nostalgic memories that involve the loss of a loved one.
In fact, if you think about things, like attending a funeral, oftentimes we sit around and we talk about memories with the deceased person, those special memories. So itߴs not uncommon for people to have sadness, loss, difficult life transitions, major disruptions in their life as part of their nostalgic memories. But what that says, and I think thatߴs another way nostalgic memories can really be distinguished from other types of memories, is theyߴre not just purely happy memories, oftentimes. Theyߴre meaningful memories, theyߴre important memories, theyߴre something that we think are impactful, that are worth holding onto.
TS: And Clay, tell me, how does it work? Whatߴs the mechanism by which nostalgia is going to empower me moving forward in my life? And you describe in Past Forward, it can help resolve loneliness even, it can help us feel more capable in the face of challenges. You give so many benefits. How does it work to do that?
CR: Yeah. So yes, nostalgia has quite a few seemingly distinct functions. So weߴve done studies that are showing that after people spend a few minutes writing about nostalgic memory, they feel a greater sense of self-esteem. Weߴve done studies showing after people write about nostalgic memory or listen to nostalgic music, they feel a greater sense of meaning in life, they feel a greater sense of social connection. They feel more optimistic about the future. They actually are more creative in creative problem-solving tasks. So thereߴs all these different things that seems like, well, nostalgia is having all sorts of distinct effects.
But there is a common mechanism behind all these things, or many of them, I think. And that is, in our research, one of the things we find is nostalgic memories, and this is another feature of nostalgic memories that distinguish them, nostalgic memories tend to be highly social memories, They tend to involve close ones, like loved ones. Not all nostalgic memories are that way. People certainly have shared memories, where theyߴve made some major accomplishment on their own, theyߴve done some athletic accomplishment or something all by themselves. But most of the time, even in those memories, they pretty quickly talk about the people who helped them do that, help them accomplish that.
So nostalgic memories tend to be deeply social. And humans are, of course, social, and it turns out that the thing that gives us meaning in life are social relationships, is the feeling that weߴre making a significant impact in the lives of others. And it seems like that sense of social significance is at the core of the nostalgic experience, and the power of nostalgia lies within that.
And so you might think of something like, letߴs think about something like creativity that seems pretty far removed from social connectedness. In fact, we often think of creativity as an act, as extreme act of self-expression, of Iߴm doing something very, very different, unique, something very novel thatߴs not connected to other people, but it is showing how different I am, how unique I am. Well, if you think about the psychology of creativity, itߴs hard to be creative when youߴre highly anxious or distressed in some way, because essentially creativity is saying, “Iߴm taking a risk, Iߴm putting myself out there, Iߴm trying something different.” And people donߴt do that very well when they feel anxious, because when youߴre anxious, thatߴs not a time to try something new. Itߴs time to be safe, itߴs a time to be defensive, to be protective, to focus on protecting the world you know, not going out there and trying to explore something new. And so creativity is actually facilitated by a sense of security.
You can think about this in a workplace environment. So if you have a team of employees and you want them to be creative, itߴs not good to make them live in fear that they might lose their jobs if they come up with the wrong idea. Itߴs better to make them feel like they live in a socially supportive environment, in which itߴs OK to take risks, youߴre not going to get in trouble if what you do doesnߴt work, or youߴre not going to get laughed at or anything like that. Weߴre here to try different things. So when you create that supportive environment, you actually allow people to try more things and to be more creative and be willing. Instead of their energy going on, like reducing their anxiety, they can really throw themselves into the more explorative act of creativity.
Well, nostalgia helps provide that security because of that social function. So when people are nostalgic, theyߴre reminded of times with loved ones, theyߴre reminded that there are people that care about them, theyߴre reminded that theyߴve had experiences of social success, theyߴre reminded of things that theyߴve done to make a positive difference in other peopleߴs lives or things that have brought them closer together with other people. And that experience offers a sense of social security, which makes them more confident, which makes them feel a bit more equipped to be creative and to try to put themselves out there. And so even something like creativity, and certainly things like social connectedness, self-esteem, meaning in life, are facilitated by a feeling of deep social connection, which nostalgia helps cultivate that.
And one other quick thing Iߴll say about that, it isnߴt just that nostalgia makes us feel socially connected by reminding us of past relationships, sometimes, those relationships are gone, where you donߴt associate with that person anymore, we lose loved ones. But what nostalgia does is, by reminding you of those past experiences of deep social connection, youߴre emboldened. Even if you feel like, “Well, right now, Iߴm not… I moved to a new city, or I donߴt know very many people, or I feel lonely,” this is just a moment in time, and life is bigger than this moment, and Iߴve had other moments that were quite socially fulfilling. And so that gives me the social confidence that, “Oh, I can have that again. I can restore relationships, I can reconnect with people, I can cultivate new relationships as necessary.”
So nostalgia doesnߴt just make people feel socially connected or remind them of past social connections, it energizes them to socially connect in the present and energizes them to prioritize social goals over other types of goals, which helps give them that sense of confidence and comfort needed to be bold and creative and to be energized to go out and do things. So I think that deep sense of social connectedness that nostalgia helps facilitate and energize is at the core of all the other benefits of nostalgia.
TS: One of your suggestions to people is to try creating a nostalgia journal, and Iߴm curious if you can say more and maybe offer some suggested writing prompts, like, “OK, Iߴve got my journal. Iߴve got one memory. Where do I get the rest of them? What writing prompts will help me?”
CR: One of the things that I try to do in the book is, a lot of times, it helps to be very specific with the issue youߴre facing right now and to use that as a way to do these types of writing prompts that youߴre talking about. And so if you think about a challenge you have right now or a decision youߴre trying to make, maybe itߴs like, “Do I take this job? Should I stay at my current job? I have this other opportunity,” it can help to start writing about nostalgic memories and to specifically try to think about memories that you feel like relate to the core themes of the challenge youߴre facing. So if youߴre facing a social challenge, itߴs good to think about, “Well, what did I do in the past? Do I have memories that touch on themes where Iߴve had social hardships or social challenges where something I was going to do is potentially going to make me lose contact with someone or is going to be an opportunity to improve a relationship with someone?” And so to think about specific things to those challenges.
But also, I think that even memories that donߴt seem like on the surface that theyߴre related can be quite useful. And so itߴs good to try to just come up with a bunch of different types of nostalgic memories. So for example, maybe you have a professional, just to stick on the professional side of things, maybe you have a professional opportunity, but youߴre worried that youߴre like, “Well, this is going to involve learning this whole new set of skills.” This can especially be the case if youߴre middle-aged or older, and you feel like, “Well, thereߴs all these new technologies coming out. Do I want to have to do that?”
You could think about a nostalgic memory where youߴve had to overcome something, or itߴs really taken some type of persistence, and it can be in a totally different domain. So it might be an athletic memory. It might be like, “Oh, when I was in high school, I decided to try this sport and had to do this and do that, and I felt really anxious and uncomfortable.” And youߴre not saying Iߴm going to do that sport right now. What youߴre saying is thereߴs something to that experience of adversity, of novelty, of having to put myself out there and try something different, of it being very difficult, and in those memories, even if itߴs a completely different type of experience, and those memories are clues to my core sense of self, of my ability to do things, my willingness to take risks.
And we actually found in some of our research that nostalgia, once you hit around age 40 or so, nostalgia actually makes you feel younger than you are. One of the things we associate with youth is that sort of willingness to take risks, that youthful spirit, that energetic spirit, and we find that nostalgia can help you recapture that, which can be good for all sorts of things in life.
So to get back to your question, I think something to do is to try to start with, “What do I want to work on in the present?” And then just start trying to generate memories. And then one of the things that Iߴve found, because I sympathize with people who are like, “Well, thatߴs going to be hard. Iߴm not the type of person that sits around and journals.” I definitely sympathize with that. But one of the things that Iߴve found just doing research is people often who start off with, “I donߴt have anything to say. I donߴt know what to say,” it just takes a couple of minutes, and then the ideas start flowing, and then you get in that practice. And then oftentimes, itߴs hard to get people to stop, because they dig a little deeper and they dig a little deeper. So I think thatߴs a good way of doing it.
But I should also note, I donߴt think journalingߴs the only way. I mean, even doing something, creating a nostalgia playlist for music on Spotify or something might seem kind of superficial, like, “Oh, youߴre just listening to music,” but in a lot of our research, we found that music is actually very powerful nostalgia cue. So some people who are maybe like, “Oh, I donߴt really want to write things,” there are these other types of activities that can just get you thinking about these memories. Scrapbooking is another one, creative activities that allow you to manipulate memories in a way, either through pictures or videos, that really allow you to interact with the memory. Some people like that more than they like writing, but the cool thing about nostalgia is thereߴs just a lot of different ways to engage in it.
I remember talking to one person, for instance, who said the way they really like to experience nostalgia, sort of revisit these memories is through cooking. And as they just said, they grew up in a household where there was a lot of cooking, and there were a lot of family events and activities around cooking, conversations, and they thought that that was kind of the best way for them to make contact with those memories. And itߴs true, certainly, that our olfactory senses are a powerful cue for nostalgia. We get familiar smells, and that kind of triggers these nostalgic memories. And for some people, thatߴs especially powerful, because a lot of their memories were around interacting with food.
So I think thatߴs another way of thinking about it, is try to figure out, “Well, what is it in your life that really would help you interrogate these memories and extract meaningful things from them?” And journaling is a powerful way to do that. Thereߴs a whole bunch of other research, unrelated to nostalgia, on the power of journaling. Thereߴs something that seems very powerful about writing out things, but just to say itߴs not the only way. Thereߴs lots of ways to creatively engage with these memories.
TS: You said something, Clay, that nostalgia could help me feel younger, help one feel younger. I donߴt quite understand that. How does that work?
CR: Yeah. So we actually got this idea because we started to see news stories where people were talking. I donߴt know. Have you ever heard of these adult camps? Kids go to camp sometimes, like summer camp?
TS: Sure.
CR: Well, there was this phenomenon a number of years ago where they were putting camps together for adults, but it was like a summer camp for kids. They would do a lot of the activities they did when they were kids. OK, so maybe thatߴs just like… most adults arenߴt going to summer camp, but itߴs like, “Well, whatߴs that tapping into?” And another thing I was thinking about is music. A lot of our music nostalgia is for music from our youth, our teenage years, and thereߴs something, thereߴs actually this concept called the reminiscence bump, which is we tend to have a very positive attitude towards pop-cultural trends and products that were prominent in our youth, whether itߴs cars or fashions or music, movies. So thereߴs something about youthfulness that we tend to associate with a lot of nostalgia.
Now, you can be nostalgic about anything for any time in your life, it doesnߴt have to be like when youߴre a kid or your teenage years, but thereߴs something about, we like the pop-cultural phenomenon, and we like these kinds of experiences associated with childhood and youth. And thereߴs this whole line of research in developmental psychology about the life course. So developmental psychology, we tend to think of as being about little kids, but we develop throughout our whole lives, we go through different phases of life that many of us are still maturing, even in middle age and beyond. So thereߴs something in this research that they found that people donߴt always feel their age, and so thereߴs a difference between biological age and whatߴs sometimes referred to as subjective age. And so some people feel younger than they are, some people feel older than they are, depending on a whole host of things.
And so we found this research was like, “Oh, peopleߴs perception of their age, how old they feel, doesnߴt always map onto how they actually are biologically.” And then we wondered, “Well, we wonder if nostalgia is involved in that at all.” Now, there might be all sorts of things that make people feel younger than they are or older than they are, but we are especially interested in nostalgia, of course. And what we found is when people spend a few minutes writing about a nostalgic memory, listening to nostalgic music, so we took people from 18 up to 80 some years old, and we had them write about a nostalgic experience or listen to nostalgic music.
And what we found is for young people, engaging in nostalgic reflection didnߴt really change how old they felt. We knew their actual age, and we would ask them, how old do you feel? And young people feel young, basically. But what we noticed is as people got older, we started to see this divergence between how old they were and how old they felt if they engaged in nostalgia. And it was around, depending on the study, it was around the age of 39, 40, 41, we did this across all our studies, but basically the punchline is around 40 years of age, nostalgia starts to make people feel statistically significantly younger than they actually are.
And then we didnߴt just ask them about their age, we gave them these other things, like do you think you could run as fast as a young person? Do you think you could do this? Do you think you could do that? And what we found is when people are nostalgic above the age of 40 or so, that nostalgia helps them feel a lot younger than they are. We call this paper the Fountain of Youth, and it seems to have something to do in these memories, weߴre recapturing that feeling of what it felt like to be young again, and itߴs energizing.
And so a lot of the things that we do as we age naturally, as we listen to old music, rewatch old movies that we love, just get together with friends and talk about old memories and things like that, I think that has a powerful function of reminding us of the energetic, youthful spirit we had when we were young. And the reason I think that thereߴs something special about that period of time in youth is thatߴs really when weߴre becoming our true selves, thatߴs when weߴre starting to get freedom, and weߴre starting to getting to decide what we want to do with our lives, when weߴre not just…
When youߴre little, you kind of have to play with whoever your parents put you in front of. You have to kind of do whatever your parents say. But once you enter adolescence, you start to have more opportunities to develop your own friendship networks, to figure out what you want to do with your career or with your life going forward, form your own path forward. And there seems to be something powerful about that time of self-development of really figuring out who you are or starting to figure that out, I should say, and we like re-tapping into that. People will talk about how they felt free, they felt optimistic, they felt hopeful, they felt energized. They had all this youthful energy and having opportunities to reconnect with that.
As we get older, when we often feel like, “Oh, weߴve got all these responsibilities and duties and lifeߴs difficult, weߴre paying bills, weߴre raising kids, weߴre taking care of older family members, weߴre doing all these adult responsibilities,” it can be very, very helpful to tap into that youthful energy again. This sort of reminds us of, “Oh, yeah. I used to like that, I used to laugh at those things, I used to enjoy those things.” And so I think cultivating hobbies and activities around that is a good way to feel young at heart.
TS: I want to call our conversation “The Surprising Powers of Nostalgia.” Did you discover anything, Clay, in your research where you said, “Whoa, this is so surprising. I wouldnߴt have known that. This is so surprising?”
CR: Yeah, a few things. So one we talked about earlier, which is the extent to which people have nostalgic memories that involve very, very difficult, unpleasant, even tragic experiences in their life really helps reveal the bittersweet nature of nostalgia. We often feel very positive, nostalgia lifts our spirits, it increases our positive mood, but it comes with this tinge of sadness and loss too. And so I was kind of surprised at the sort of, again, itߴs not that everyoneߴs sharing those types of experience or even that most people are, but that there is this element of people can find nostalgia in a lot of difficult life circumstances. And so that was very educational, and it was also very helpful for thinking about, well, why, getting to that, the functional use of nostalgia. Is nostalgia just a fun distraction, or is it really useful in some other ways?
And those type of memories really served, to me, as a good clue that nostalgia is not just about silly stuff from our youth. You know what I mean? In popular culture, at least, we often think of, “Oh, nostalgia is about the fashions from our youth, and itߴs just sort of a fun entertaining thing.” And I think thatߴs definitely true, thatߴs part of it. But those types of memories really revealed that thereߴs often a very, very deep existential, even very difficult life experiences that people derive a lot of sense of meaning from and that they have nostalgia for. So that was one thing that was surprising.
The other thing that was really surprising and really has played a dramatic role in changing my own view of nostalgia, which has evolved over the years, is the amount of future-oriented language that Iߴve seen in peopleߴs nostalgic stories. What I mean by that is a lot of times youߴll see a story where we will say, “OK, share a nostalgic memory with us and how it makes you feel,” and people will write something like, “Oh, I used to do this, I used to spend summers with my grandmother, or I used to go after school with my friends and do this thing, and it was really special.”
And a lot of times at the end of that, youߴll see, “And this makes me feel grateful, or this makes me feel hopeful, or this makes me feel optimistic.” And you started to see these clues of, well, people arenߴt just saying, “Oh, I had these great experiences behind me and thanks for reminding me of them. Itߴs kind of nice to revisit them.” They were saying, “Thatߴs actually helpful for me going forward,” and that was unsolicited. At the time, I didnߴt have any sense that nostalgia would make people optimistic or any kind of future-oriented thinking, I really thought it was just going to comfort them to revisit that.
And so seeing the amount of positive language in these narratives really was what started to get not just me, but other researchers thinking that, is nostalgia really just about the past, or is it kind of energizing? Is it kind of like a future-oriented experience? And that really started to drive a lot of our research to where we actually more explicitly did experiments looking at future-oriented thinking. So weߴd have people write about nostalgic event or some other type of event, and then we would explicitly ask them, weߴd give them questionnaires about how optimistic they are about the future.
And what weߴd find is people who engaged in nostalgic reflection became more optimistic about the future than people who thought about other types of life experiences. That was something I did not expect, I did not expect that people wouldߴve this future-oriented sort of angle to their nostalgic memories, and that really shifted the focus from me thinking of nostalgia as this defensive, past-oriented experience to really a more future-oriented experience that… another way of saying it is I used to think of, “OK, so lifeߴs difficult. People are going through something, so they turn to the past for comfort. And thatߴs good for them, because once theyߴre comforted, theyߴll relax, and theyߴll be like, ߵOK, now I can move forward.ߴ” But thatߴs a very defensive way of thinking of nostalgia. It meets like a psychological defense.
But then I started to think of nostalgia as, “Well, no, people arenߴt just comforting themselves. Theyߴre actually looking for ideas, theyߴre looking for inspiration. Thereߴs a future-oriented motivation there.” They might not realize theyߴre doing it, Iߴm not saying people are consciously saying, “OK, I need some ideas. Iߴll retreat to my memories.” I just think our brains are doing that. “Where do I get ideas? Well, I get ideas from all the things, the experiences Iߴve accumulated over time, and maybe some of those experiences are especially important, and nostalgia helps direct me towards those, especially important ones.” It kind of filters. Nostalgia is like, “Oh, I have this bank of special memories, and nostalgia helps me access those, and those special memories are what I need to have ideas going forward.”
Historians will say, “Well, we need to study the past because that helps us build a better future,” and we think about that, most people would agree with that at a large civilizational level, “Learn the lessons of history.” I think this happens on a very intimate personal level, at the individual level, which is we need our personal life histories to build a better future, and nostalgia can help direct us towards the elements of our life that we think really, not that we want to repeat those things, which is, I think, another kind of myth about nostalgia. People arenߴt just trying to repeat the past. What theyߴre saying is, “Thereߴs something special in the past thatߴd be nice to incorporate into my life going forward. Even if my lifeߴs dramatically different going forward, thereߴs something there that Iߴd like to incorporate into that.” And I think that discovering that by just reading peopleߴs nostalgic memories changed the course of this research dramatically.
TS: Clay, I want to end on a personal note, if thatߴs OK. So Iߴm going to ask you to share with us a nostalgic memory that has some superpower effect for you in your life. Can you do that?
CR: Yes. The memory Iߴm about to share I like because I think it is an example of a memory that, on the surface, people would say, “Oh, that just shows that nostalgia is kind of this consumer phenomenon. People just sell you, companies just like to sell you stuff that reminds you of the past.” There are people that have this very consumer view of nostalgia, right? Companies are just tapping and theyߴre exploiting your nostalgia to sell you stuff. And I think that there are, of course, obviously thatߴs a very powerful marketing strategy, but thatߴs not really why I think people care about products from their past.
So the memory that Iߴd like to share is when I was a kid, my parents didnߴt have much money. We were poor. And I remember wanting a Nintendo really badly. Other kids at school had a Nintendo. This was in the early, mid-ߴ80s, 1980ߴs when this just came out. Other kids had a Nintendo. We couldnߴt afford a Nintendo, so we didnߴt get a Nintendo. And the Nintendo had been out a couple of years, and lots of people had these Nintendos, and we didnߴt have one. And then one Christmas, we got a Nintendo, and I donߴt know how my parents pulled it off or how they afforded it, but it was a really, really big deal. And to this day, I donߴt have a lot of time to play video games, Iߴd rather spend time outside in nature doing other things, but I still have this strong attachment to Nintendo, and I still play. I have the new one, the Nintendo Switch, the new Nintendo, and Nintendo obviously is a company thatߴs built a great deal of success around nostalgia.
So the reason Iߴm sharing that memory is because people will be like, “Oh, Christmas morning you got this Nintendo. That seems like a really superficial nostalgic memory. You care about this stupid product, this stupid electronic product that you got.” But the reason thatߴs a special memory is because I knew it was a hardship for my parents. And at the time, I was a kid, so I didnߴt really think about that. But looking back on it, I knew that my parents, they mustߴve worked really hard to make that happen. That mustߴve been very difficult, and I definitely cherished that Nintendo very much.
And so I think a lot of times people think of nostalgia about objects as being materialistic or kind of silly, but if you look at peopleߴs nostalgic memories around objects, even things like trophies or people will have their high school letter jacket or trophy from something they won when they were a kid or a movie collection, collection is another great example, people have all sorts of collections of objects, collectors, it might seem like materialistic on the surface, but really those objects are just symbols that remind you of what was really going on.
I have all these memories playing Nintendo with my younger brother. Most of my nostalgic memories, most of my video game memories are not isolated experiences of me sitting in a room by myself, just vegging out in front of the TV. Theyߴre playing video games with my brother, theyߴre playing video games with our neighbors and things like that. So I share that memory because I think a lot of times people should, if you think of something even in your own life, you think, “Oh, thatߴs kind of a silly thing that I care about. I care about this.” Whether itߴs antique dishes, old quilts, old photographs, a vinyl record collection, or any of these things, most of the time, those things are just symbols that help connect you to whatߴs really important, which is who you were with, the relationships that were involved in getting that thing, sharing that thing, experiencing that thing.
So our nostalgia for objects, for things is really a nostalgia for people and for relationships. And thatߴs why I like to share that memory, because I think it nicely captures that most of the stuff that people dismiss as superficial consumer nostalgia, actually, if you scratch just a bit, youߴll find something much deeper.
TS: Clay Routledge, you have opened my mind and my heart to the surprising powers of nostalgia. Thank you so much. Heߴs the author of the new book, Past Forward: How Nostalgia Can Help You Live A More Meaningful Life. Thanks so much, Clay.
CR: Thank you so much. It was good to chat with you.
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