Tami Simon: Welcome to Insights at the Edge, produced by Sounds True. My name’s Tami Simon, I’m the founder of Sounds True, and I’d love to take a moment to introduce you to the Sounds True Foundation. The goal of the Sounds True Foundation is to provide access and eliminate financial barriers to transformational education and resources, such as teachings and trainings on mindfulness, emotional awareness, and self-compassion. If you’d like to learn more and join with us in our efforts, please visit SoundsTrueFoundation.org.
In this episode of Insights at the Edge, my guest is Dr. Kristen Lee. Kris, called Dr. Kris by her students, is an internationally recognized, award-winning behavioral science professor, clinician, researcher, author, activist, and comedian from Boston, Massachusetts. She operates a consulting practice devoted to preventing and treating burnout, and is the author of a new book with Sounds True. It’s called Worth the Risk: How to Microdose Bravery to Grow Resilience, Connect More, and Offer Yourself to the World. Kris is an unusual person. She’s highly accomplished, and yet she deeply questions our culture of overachievement. She’s a psychotherapist who is also a stand-up comic working at the intersection of humor and mental health. She’s an artist, someone who believes in making our lives a work of art. She inspires each of us to be one of a kind, as she is. Here’s my conversation with Dr. Kristen Lee.
To begin, Kris, tell me and tell our listeners a little bit about you and the winding path you’ve been on that brought you to write Worth the Risk.
Kristen Lee: It’s certainly been a path, as a person with a lived experience of anxiety, to really think about risk-taking and what it means to show up in life and to overcome fear. And so that was always a phenomena in my life—just that inner struggle. And it made me really curious as a person, people’s stories of overcoming and of grappling. And as time would tell, as I was maneuvering through, I decided to become a therapist and, in that, learned so much from those who were bravely coming forward with their stories of both tremendous trauma and grappling with all kinds of chaos and difficulties, to really coming to a place of resilience and deeper acceptance. And so that really gave me a lot to work with and caused me to want to go deeper into research. I transitioned as psychotherapist to professor and really began this process of research around, what does it mean to be resilient in a world where fear is contagious, where anxiety is the new normal? They’re calling it “the age of anxiety.”
I think I was seeing this duality—people going through these things, but also overcoming—and I was curious about their process. I knew my own process had a lot of bumps along the way, but was one that got me to a place of increased comfort, embracing my weirdness, if you will, being able to accept all those different parts of myself in a deeper way in my life. And so that was really part of what started it—seeing those I served in therapy, in my classroom, in my research, embodying this sense of gumption and spirit. And sometimes when you see that, it feels a little romanticized. And as you dig in, you realize that it came through a lot of massive redoes, it came through strategic risk taking and that willingness to face the anxiety rather than lean into the primitive instinct to curl into fetal position.
That really began this process of writing. And I think we all write about things that we struggle with. For me, the struggle to overcome anxiety, to take risks, to not feel afraid that I’m going to hurt someone’s feelings or I’m going to let someone down or that someone’s going to judge me—those were things that I was grappling a lot with throughout my life, and I’ve been working to overcome. Writing this was about helping us all see, that’s not just an old-school mental health condition, but that’s very much the human condition. We can’t avoid risk, we can’t skirt it, it’s part of our everyday life, so the more we can get comfortable with the uncomfortable, the more we can find our way through it.
TS: I want to start just by thanking you for beginning our conversation with sharing your own history and your own process with anxiety. I think a lot of people would feel like, no, I don’t want the world to see that. How did you get comfortable with being able to say, yes, not only am I embracing my weirdness, which maybe wouldn’t be such a big deal, but anxiety has a mental health stigma in some people’s minds.
KL: Indeed. It was certainly through a very strategic microdose approach to coming out with this. And for me, philosophically, my training as a clinical social worker, and as I work in macro social work as well to overcome stigma and discrimination for anyone with lived experiences, that is just such a central part of my ethos, and also as a human resilience researcher and a person who’s obsessed with brain science. I also knew that, again, many of us are likely vacillating and in and out of episodes across our lifespan. So, gone are the days of the 1950s hangover where we think that it’s a moral failing on someone’s part if they suffer or struggle, or that it’s just a family issue or it’s something to be hush about. Rather, I have ahold of a firm belief that we need to really bring mental health out of the shadows.
And I was feeling a little bit, like, I was skirting around it a little bit. I was dropping hints in my writing and in my public work. And then I decided, of all places, to really come out with it in front of all my peers at work. So, I think we all know, peer presentation is always the most provocative and the most anxiety producing. And I went off script, I went off the PowerPoint and I just talked about what my brain does. In the book, I talk about the worst-case-scenario brain, and it’s this idea that when you have anxiety, your brain super speeds to the worst possible outcome. So, you send me a text, I write back, I see those three dots, I think you’re mad at me. Or the phone rings and I think someone died. It’s that automated thinking. And I knew that I wanted to come out more deliberately and intentionally with this story not only of struggle but also of recovery.
And Tami, when I first did this, I walked back to my office, my first thought was, is my boss going to start checking up on me? What are people going to think? Should I even go back to the office? And instead, I was greeted with, “Thank you for saying that, that’s exactly how I feel, but I was afraid to say it.” And from that moment on, it really invited a new level of comradery, community, and safety into my life, where I realized that I’m just talking about what’s happening in my brain. And these are, again, conditions of our modern world. Within the level of trauma that we’re all marinating in, many of us are having these very proportionate reactions. And again, there’s the biology, there’s the social context behind it. And I realized that in coming out and telling my story, that was not only a process of liberation for myself, but anyone else that could hear that message and understand, or maybe experience a deeper level of safety for themselves.
TS: And one of the points you make in Worth the Risk that I thought was so point on and brilliant and helpful, is that when we do share our vulnerabilities with our coworkers, with people, instead of leading with our masks, we actually get to feel connected to people, which is what we all want. We get to feel connected. I think that’s so important. OK.
Now, in the very beginning of the book, you tell a story about being at a comedy club. You had a breakthrough insight while you were sitting in the audience of the comedy club, about this microdosing of bravery, which is really the theme of Worth the Risk. Tell us that story.
KL: Yes. So, I was there with my good friend, J Smitty, who’s also a comedian. I also perform as a comedian, and we were watching Ms. Pat. Ms. Pat is just an extraordinary, courageous woman who overcame significant trauma. And what was interesting—it’s a comedy show and she is dropping these trauma truth bombs one after another, and just the whole crowd is in stitches. And I’m thinking, in my training and my career, I’ve never seen anyone talk about their deepest, worst experiences in a way that would actually elicit laughter. It felt almost slightly irreverent. But as an artist, she just skillfully showed the ways in which we’re wired to be resilient. And at the end of the show, what she did, after just having us in stitches, she turned to all of us, the room got very quiet, and she said, “We must be brave to tell our stories.”
And it just resonated, it made so much sense. And it caused me to realize, I went on to read her book and I binged everything that she has out there, and I realized that it wasn’t like she just took to the mic and just dumped all her trauma in front of people in one fell swoop. First, it was someone giving her that feedback—look, you have fantastic wit, you have a sense of humor, have you ever thought about stand up? And then she took to the stage slowly but surely and built up that courage, she nurtured her courage. And that was just a moment of insight as I was doing my academic research and just thinking about everything at hand in the world, the level of fear and the level of trepidation, and then social media, which causes us to curate ourselves and to show up in ways that aren’t telling our true stories.
So, her boldness just truly impacted me. And it caused me to realize, just as in my research and the work I do around behavior change, it has to happen in a very paced way. Because I think risk is pitched like you have to jump out of an airplane, or bet it all at the Bellagio, or maybe get on stage like Ms. Pat and reveal yourself, which many people are afraid to even do public speaking. And it’s not any of those things. It’s the small acts that we work towards that free ourselves of what society is yelling at us 24/7 about who we’re supposed to be and what we’re supposed to do, and rather, taking that agency, that psychological agency, to move forward according to our values with strategic risk.
TS: Now, you mentioned you’re an expert in resiliency. What’s the relationship between microdosing bravery, taking these small acts, and then being able to be resilient when really difficult, big things happen?
KL: One of the things that I have loved to see transpire in the resilience research and in the conversation is that we no longer think of resilience as a trait, something that we’re born with or we’re not. And what we know is, resilience as a process. It’s a process of positive adaptation during the face of adversity. And what we know is that risk can nurture resilience. So, in a similar fashion, risk is also a process that we grapple with, that we reckon with in order to really show up more fully in life. I think one of the key pieces that you see in this whole work is this idea that safe relationships matter.
When we look at resilience research, among the most protective factors towards resilience are our relationships. If we’re showing up phony, afraid to speak up in our relationships, afraid to be our true self, whether this is at work, at home, or anywhere in-between, that becomes a true barrier to honest and real connection. And we know loneliness is being called “the new smoking.” As a health risk, we know that the pandemic has escalated that sense of disconnection, removing us from needed community that helps. And so, in my research, I’m obsessed with this whole idea that it’s not trait based, these are all processes that we can take on in order to stay and do well in today’s context.
TS: It seems to me that there’s this interesting “both/and” here, and I wonder how you see it, which is we need safety. As you mentioned, we need safety in our relationships, we need to feel safe in our bodies, we need to feel safe that we can express ourselves, but we also have to go to that edge where we don’t quite feel safe, where we’re taking a risk, where it feels dangerous. So, how do we find that right balance between being on the edge and being safe too? I want both.
KL: Yes. I agree, we can do both all at once. And the key thing is realizing, what do I stand for? What matters to me? What do I care about the most? What are my values? Then how does that guide my decisions over which risks to even choose and which to endeavor? Whenever we give in to that feeling of retreat or that feeling of crawling into fetal position and hiding out because we just can’t face what’s coming around the corner at warp speed, we have to recognize that when we really become more comfortable with the uncomfortable, we can grow. The beauty of growth is that it’s not just for the sake of personal gain or upward mobility, but it’s really for the sake of society. So, the more any of us, again, endeavor risk and look to become more uncomfortable and put ourselves out there, the more equipped we become to influence and lead others in that same way, to liberate, as I talk about it.
I think that sense of safety is an illusion. That’s another big piece here, is that we can think, OK, I’m afraid I’m going to go on the treadmill and fall down, so I’m not going to go on the treadmill. And then there’s a trade-off. With every risk, there’s a trade-off. The trade-off is you won’t be as fit if you don’t get on that treadmill. Or you could think, I’ve been burnt in my relationships, and so therefore I’m not going back on the dating apps, I’m not going to put myself out there. And maybe you’re not risking that turmoil again or that heartbreak, but on the other hand, you’re risking adventure or just meeting people and learning more about yourself and about life and creating moments of joy. There’s so many ways in which we can recognize the trade-offs. By not doing risk, we’re not necessarily causing ourselves to be safer and, in fact, we could really be disrupting adventure, growth, relationships, community, just things that maybe our wildest imaginations couldn’t even conceive of.
TS: Now Kris, you used this phrase, “learning to be comfortable with being uncomfortable.” And I think this is something that now, it’s part of the zeitgeist. I hear it a lot in terms of, in a good way. I think it’s wonderful that we’re starting to say, oh, it’s OK. I can be OK with how uncomfortable I feel right now, because I’m in a growth process, something’s changing. And I want to talk about this specifically in terms of anxiety. And what have you learned in your own experience? How are you with yourself when you feel anxious in a way that you can withstand the feelings that come with anxiety?
KL: A lot of it is working on self-acceptance. That’s been a process for me because I tend to have the perfectionistic tendencies or be that overthinker or unhealthy overachiever. In my mind’s eye, it’s never enough, I should be doing more. And so, a lot of it is changing those mindsets and behaviors that perpetuate those ways of being that have led me to moments of high angst and burnout. I think it’s also all the advantage of my clinical training and the work that I do, is to learn about anxiety and to recognize that there is an element of it, I always call it the frenemy, anxiety is the frenemy, so there’s an element of it that really reveals a level of conscientiousness, what we care about. If we had no anxiety, we would just be indifferent or apathetic. I think just that learning around what it is that I can do in my practices to, again, be more self-compassionate and to stay anchored.
And so, a couple of things, Tami. One is, I really am very protective, and I’m not religious at all, but I’m religious about my sleep and my lifestyle medicine. So, making sure that I sleep, that I nourish properly with proper food, nutrition, I’m a neurotic walker. And then my creative life—so my writing, my performing, all of those things, a sense of humor especially has been very protective. I think a lot of us, through the pandemic, had our typical practices and then we had to bring it to a whole nother level of practice. And so, all of those things are things that I do on the daily, that I’ve trained myself. And when we think about brain plasticity and our incredible wiring to keep adapting and growing and stopping these automated tendencies towards anxiety, that is a real catalyst for healing and change.
So, as you said, it’s fantastic to see people talking about discomfort, about radical acceptance, about it’s OK not to be OK. But a message here is, we also don’t have to stay stuck in that place. Like, OK, I’m just a person with anxiety and yes, it waxes and wanes. But I also have been able to overcome many of those visceral—like the panic attacks. I’m much less apt now to have panic attacks than I would’ve been before I really started to practice these things more intentionally. And the key for anyone listening in our community here is to remember that this isn’t flip of switch, it’s not overnight. Behavior change happens in microdoses, small, strategically, and that’s what gives us that momentum to continue the efforts that are important for our resilience.
TS: Now, I want to talk about some of these microdoses in our lives and make it super real and grounded for people, and I was thinking of some examples of where microdosing bravery could really help. And we’ll just explore a few of them together, if that’s OK.
KL: Yes.
TS: So, in our relationships and the whole notion that we could speak up about something instead of keeping it buried—and then I was asking myself, why? Why do I not speak up in this relationship or that relationship? It could be at work, it could be with my partner, it could be with a friend, and it’s like, well, God, I don’t want to get into it, conflict averse. And then there’s going to be all the discussion that’s going to take forever. So, what’s your suggestion when someone knows, I have something to say here, I know I have something to say. In fact, I’ve had something to say for years and I just keep burying it.
KL: I think that’s a very honest human reaction that many of us can relate to. And again, when we think about microdosing, think of it as a chip-away approach, we chip away. We test the waters. You could also maybe call it the hint-dropping method. But to your point, I think we stay averse because we don’t want to enter that tunnel of chaos with someone, or we don’t want World War III to break out in our relationships. But I think the thing that I’ve seen in my clinical work, and by the way in my own life, to be candid, I have all these communication skills and training and sometimes I’m a chicken. Sometimes I’m a total chicken and I’m afraid to bring things up. I don’t want to hurt someone’s feelings or, to your point, you just don’t want to go there.
But ultimately, what happens is this creates what we might think of as a cumulative effect, a negative effect in our relationships. If we just go along to get along and we smile or we avoid, it’s going to catch up with us, and that’s that whole reminder that risks can’t be skirted or avoided. And again, it’s not about sitting down and having this massive, deep conversation, but it could be something as simple as saying, Tami, it would mean a lot to me if you knew this about me. And it’s really self-advocacy. It’s a form of self-advocacy to just speak up. And I think ultimately, for any of our relationships, whether in professional arenas or in our personal lives, ultimately, if we want to really enjoy a deeper presence with one another, just a beautiful connection with each other, that honesty and that ability even to maneuver through that can really be very healing and very pivotal in our relationships. So, it’s a way of engaging in life that is a bit scary, but worth doing
TS: Wonderful response. Now, another arena where I think many of us could use some microdosing of bravery has to do with our creative life—being as expressive, being as artistic as we actually feel inside. And once again, I think there’s all kinds of things that go on, whether it’s that ship sailed, you brought up perfectionism. So, talk some about microdosing bravery in terms of our creative expression.
KL: I think it’s important for us all to look at our context as we evaluate this. In my rating, I talk about the commodity complex of today, so this is the idea that success is measured very narrowly and it’s very linear. So, by the age of five, before someone’s lost their first tooth, the kid already has to be know where their top tier college is, or by the time they’re in third grade, they should be reading at three grade levels ahead, or by the time they’re in high school, they should be taking 20 AP classes and cocurriculars. I’m outlining this because it starts early on, around what’s socially acceptable, what’s desired, and what success looks like. And creativity gets squashed, it gets totally squashed. Conformity is certainly just pressured onto us.
And I think, especially as we maneuver into adult life, and if we’re in a professional environment, we can feel like we have to be very bound up, or it just can feel like creativity gets stifled. I think for all of us, it starts with recognizing those social forces and that social context. And ironically, what’s also ironic, is that data shows that creativity is one of the most sought-after job skills of today. We obviously need to be creative and agile thinkers, and yet still there’s this strange dichotomy there, or paradox, around how creative should we be. What I will say is that creative way of living our lives, however that might be, it might be by wearing colorful outfit and living our life as art. It could be the way you put seasoning on your food, it could be the way you use language, it could be the way you sing a song or you paint or you create something with your hands.
Creativity is something that we know nourishes the brain, and yet in our modern life, it’s squashed, whether, again, because of these perils of erroneous definitions of success or just lack of time. And then we feel like, oh, I’m not being productive to be creative. But actually, creativity and creative endeavors prime our brain to really be able to be analytical, stay on task, and it helps us in many other areas of our lives. So, I think creativity, it’s a value I will tell you that I hold very sacred and dear, and one that I think I could give other examples if you want, just things that have helped me break through my own anxiety and fear in a very strategic way.
TS: Yes. Well, I’m curious, because here you are, you’re doing stand-up comedy, and you also mentioned, though, that you have at least had a history of perfectionism. And I thought to myself, God, Kris, I’m sure she’s gotten up on stage, told a series of jokes that the room was silent.
KL: Crickets.
TS: How does she deal with that?
KL: I think that’s the joy of humor. I feel like I use humor as a practice on and off stage. And you realize everything is a skit in life, or everything’s a Curb Your Enthusiasm or Seinfeld moment if you let it be. That’s the creativity in the mind’s eye, is just to realize, oh, of course that went wrong or of course I blew that line. And the humor has been one of the greatest pathways to dismantle perfectionism. But I think another reason I’m obsessed with it is, I think that, obviously, laughter is the best medicine, it’s so therapeutic, but it can call important issues into view for all of us. And that’s another big theme in Worth the Risk, is community solidarity and moving to a better place with all our social ills and issues. For me, it’s worth the risk of comedy. I think the biggest fear I had wasn’t bombing in a club or something like that, I thought that it might diminish my credibility professionally.
TS: Sure.
KL: So I thought, here I am, an academic. I’ve worked my whole life. I was the first in my family to go to college. I worked four jobs in my undergrad years—state school—all that work to get people to take me seriously and overcome my imposter syndrome. And then I’m like, what am I doing? Am I going to undo it? In the pandemic, one of my absurd moments was to start a comedy mental health show, and this was to raise funds for mental health access and awareness. And I started this whole thing and I thought, oh no, are people at work going to think I’m totally weird? Again, that whole thing I first felt when I came out with my mental health story. And I thought, is this going to diminish my serious work?
And sure, there might be people out there who think it’s a little bit questionable, but I see it as a catalyst for teaching. And more important, I see it as a catalyst for access. Because so many people can’t afford higher education, they might not even be able to afford a book or just be in that position. And I’m very against pretentiousness or esoteric stuff, which that word always cracks me up because it’s like, what does that mean? But I’m very against those barriers that are created in society. So, I think for me, it’s worth taking the risk of people maybe having perspectives about that zany side of me or that creative life I live. It’s worth it if I’m creating a conversation, if I’m creating access, if I’m offering information in a way that people might not expect to get at a comedy show. I’m dropping in these other really important points that are important for me to share in the world.
TS: One of the insights I had reading Worth the Risk is that when we do put ourselves out there and risk being criticized—which your story illustrates exactly, and I’ve seen this in my own life when I’ve put myself out there. And believe me, I was like, God, I loved working at Sounds True in the early years when I wasn’t in front of the camera, in front of the microphone. I was behind the scenes editing other people’s work. Let them take the arrows, I’m not going to. But when you risk criticism, it happens, you get criticized, but you also get community.
KL: Yes.
TS: The people who resonate are drawn towards you. It’s worth the risk.
KL: Indeed. And I think that’s the message, it’s that ultimately there’s that trade off, that initial, oh, that moment of, what did I just do? Or that moment of sheer vulnerability. It’s so nail-biting and provocative, but then you see what comes around. And I think it’s not only that we’re developing those relationships in community, but if anyone relates to being a perfectionist or hard on themselves, if you can also move the needle in terms of self-acceptance and deeper joy and presence with yourself, then that’s also a form of liberation. And I think we’re always going to get criticized in this world. I think at the end of the day, we have to unhook from caring about that external validation or comparing ourselves to each other. But knowing, as long as we are moving along in our values through this strategic process of risk, then we will be nourished and we will be protected, and we will find our fellow travelers along the way.
TS: Now, a couple times you’ve used this phrase, “strategic risk taking,” the strategic process—
KL: Yes.
TS: —of risk. Help me understand the strategy part.
KL: Well, I think people, again, when they hear risk, it’s a little bit unsure. What do you mean by that? And there’s a lot of old adages about risk, what is it, two in the hand? What’s the one about the bushel? Two in the hand—
TS: Definitely keep the—
KL: One in the hand—
TS: Keep the one bird that you’re going to kill in your hand.
KL: Yes.
TS: You’re going to kill it because you’ve got it. Anyway, but I think that’s the gist of it, versus trying to get two. Yes.
KL: So, I think when we think about risk, again, there’s a lot of these Avenger-like versions of it. We think we have to just be so ultimately brave. But strategic risk, again, is about taking it slow and steady, making it a practice and, as I’ve said, connecting the dots with our values to our actions. This is a big piece of the work that I do, is spurring on behavior change, sustainable behavior change. So, the idea with this here, with risks that are strategic, it’s not random. Because I think the way I talk about it is, don’t keg-stand risk. And what I mean by that is, we think it’s these grand jaw-dropping gestures of risk that we need to assert.
Strategic risk is—and I think this is good for anyone that identifies as an introvert or ambivert, or someone that maybe feels very risk averse or they don’t feel like they’re this big, bold person, this big Mufasa, they feel more like a cowardly lion. The strategic part is just realizing, it’s the tiny things that you do step-by-step that embolden you, that give you that momentum to feel ready for that next step. So, recognizing it very much as a process, but not random. Not, OK, well then I’m going to just put all my savings into Bitcoin. Or I’m just going to really tell my boss what I think. It’s more in a measured way, so that you can then integrate what you’ve done. So, think of microdosing and digestion, it’s little doses a little bit at a time that, again, edify and nourish and build that added momentum of courage. And so, that’s the strategic part, rather than fighting it all up at once and just facing the consequences of that.
TS: In the chapter where you talked about, “don’t keg-stand risk,” I had to look that up. I was like, what is a keg-stand? And I thought, oh my God, you’re dating yourself, and I am. Never done that. There you go. OK. To me, one, I want to share one of the most inspiring parts of the book and one of the parts that I found the most challenging. So, one of the parts that I found the most inspiring had to do with how, in your view, in this time that we’re in right now, we have to search out what our values are and decide what risks we’re willing to take to speak out for social justice—
KL: Yes.
TS: —and to speak out for people who don’t have the same amount of privilege that we have in the culture. And I wonder if you can talk more about that, and specifically, also, you share the science around being a passive bystander—
KL: Yes.
TS: —being in the spectator role instead of being an active changemaker in the world. So, if you can talk some about that.
KL: Indeed. This is one of the most important pieces. This isn’t just a book about personal gain or growth, it’s about social change. And when we look at our context at hand and all the systemic -isms and injustices, I think many of us are left in a place where we want to help. We want to speak out, we want to hold ourselves to a high level of accountability. And it can often be difficult to know what to do, what will bring that impact in the world to really bring about the changes that are sorely needed. When we think about being an active contributor versus a passive bystander, that’s about, again, looking at our own biases. That’s a risk that, many of us, it’s a very difficult one, to confront our own biases and prejudices. It’s being willing to confront this really, really fraught condition that we’ve all inherited in society, these terrible injustices against BIPOC individuals and communities and LGBTQIA communities, and to look at how the dominant group has just had its way.
And these things can really—obviously there’s a real lack of helpful dialogue happening very often in the polarized sociopolitical climate, but one thing I really want to encourage is looking for ways we can begin our process of active contribution. And as you know, one of the ways I think about it is in the diversity and inclusion conversation, people years ago would talk a lot about tolerance, oh, let’s tolerate each other. And I’m thinking, OK, we can tolerate apps that shut down on us too quickly or long lines or that coworker that always has a million questions. We can tolerate those things. But I think we can do better when it comes to seeing and loving and being accountable for one another. I also have a lot of issue. I take issue with the framing around when people say, well, I accept you, so let’s promote acceptance.
And to me, that also is problematic, because that holds, again, that dominant group perspective. OK, I’m right, but I still accept you. I still unconditionally love you, and I accept you. It still holds that dominant position. So, what I advocate for is human reverence, the idea that we see each other in full splendor with awe and gratitude and admiration. And especially for anyone who’s been underserved, marginalized, underrepresented, we should look at their lived experiences and their stories and be awestruck. And unfortunately in societies, those are the very opposite of what happens. There’s so much judgment and blame and shame and disparaging ways. For any of us, as we want to endeavor social change, it begins with confronting and unlearning those biases, looking at how any potential positions of privilege we have can be used for the greater good and to not be passive bystanders. It’s an easy one. Not really easy, but when we see things, speak up and ask questions. Why did you say that about this person or this group?
And I think as we all have that collective courage, we can call things into question in a way that’s effective. What we’re looking at now with cancel culture, for example, is a lot of rubbing of noses in messes and a lot of shame and fighting and finger pointing. From a behavior change standpoint, that is not what helps us move to a place of solidarity and community and equity. That’s something that is an essential message as well, that’s so important, is that we take those risks of not being passive. And again, the science shows that it’s a mixed bag. On one hand, there’s all those studies that came out about passive bystandership. Some of them have been overturned and, ultimately, so much of the new science is revealing our desire to connect, our desire to look out for each other, and the kindness that we have as human beings, as a species. We’re this paradox, but there’s a lot we can leverage as we build these ways of interacting and engaging and having reverence that can build collective momentum.
TS: In terms of having reverence, even just connecting with each person—great gift to great gift is something you point out—is worth the risk. Can you talk about that?
KL: I think that the greatest gift that we can give each other, Tami, is our ability to see ourselves in one another, to see our strengths, our inherent beauty, our worth, our dignity, our capacity to microdose risk and be nourished, and to be bold and brave and courageous. We see that everywhere we turn. And I think the gift is being able to reflect that to each other and to encourage each other in that. We need that. There’s fear, hate, those are all very contagious. So are these ways of risk-taking that help us to bestow that gift upon one another, that gift of reverence and awe, and really that we’re not alone and that we’re all deeply connected.
TS: Now, I am going to share the part of the book that I found the most challenging. We’re going to get there in a moment. But I realize there’s one thing that hasn’t been fully clear to me, which is, I asked you about your perfectionism and you said, well, in doing the comedy, humor really helped me. And I thought, huh, because I think that’s a streak many of us have. We want to speak up or we want to try this new thing, but we don’t want it to not go well, so we hold back because we want to do it right. How have you gotten over that?
KL: I think that we have to call out the notion of perfectionism as an illusion. There’s no such thing as perfect, and society is trying to bait us into these ideals of what makes us worthy. So I think it’s first calling that out. And then I think my behavior science lens also helps me to realize just how foolish this is, how it’s a futile effort to strive for this unhealthy overachievement, and ultimately that really diminishes the quality of life. And it actually disrupts our ability to contribute more wholly and positively. And an area of my work is around avoiding burnout, so if we think we’re going to just keep hustling and overriding our bodily systems and not investing in what nourishes us and our own creative lives, then I think we can see ourself ill-positioned. And we see so many people falling into traps of social comparison.
I think my work has revealed to me that we all have this tendency to pretend we’re fine, but behind the scenes, on one hand, we can be very accomplished and have it together, and on the other hand, all at the same time, we could feel like we’re a hot mess and we’re going to lose it. And all those things are true, both at the same time, and that’s OK. So, I think just using that critical thinking lens, what is this whole thing about perfectionism? Is it a thing? And then, how do we talk back to it thoughtfully? And in a way that helps us unhook from those unhealthy myths and ideals.
TS: One of the lines I loved in the book, you just talked about, pretending we’re fine. You write, “Pretending we are fine is not an act of courage.” I thought that’s great. We’re talking about microdosing bravery, and pretending we’re fine isn’t necessarily a courageous act. I wanted to underscore that. OK.
Here’s the part I found challenging, “the cult of overachievement.” The cult of overachievement. And as I was reading it, I thought, I don’t know, have I bought into this overachievement thing? And how then, if we are committed and if we put too much of our energy into our culture’s standards and the sense of all the goodies that come with overachieving, how that impacts our ability to take the risks we actually really need to take in our life. So, I wonder if you can speak to that.
KL: Indeed. The cult of overachievement is alive and well. I see this in my work with students, very high-performing students. I see this at work with the companies that I work with around the world that ask themselves the question, how do we strive for rigor and excellence without compromising our well-being? And I think this is a question of our times, but it’s been a question we’ve needed to ask for a long time: is success the definitions that we’ve been handed or is it something different? I know so many people who have achieved pinnacles of so-called success and they’re not even well enough to enjoy it. And so it’s challenging some of those ideals that are presented. And we see this a lot in schools and parenting in this hypercompetitive global market, everyone is striving to get into the right school and to have the right job and the letters after their name and the Tesla and the red bottom.
There’s a lot in terms of materialism or just thinking we’re commodities in life, and ultimately it’s not worth sacrificing ourselves to a point of becoming ill or very dissatisfied with our lives. It’s a hard one because I think we can still be contributing with full fervor in life, but without eroding ourselves to that point of being burnt out. I think that we all have to ask ourselves a lot of questions in terms of, again, what are our values? What do we care about? How do we want to feel? How do we want to experience life? How do we want to contribute positively in the world? And I think those can be guiding questions, rather than, what will people think about me? Or am I doing it right?
I mean, that’s the pressure, to be right. And I think as a scientist, for me, one of the guiding things is curiosity, and any good inquiry will lead to more questions than answers. But in society, there’s a lot of pressure to have that right answer and think we know everything and to be mistake averse. We’re afraid even if we get a B. Say we take a risk and we write a paper, we get a B. Everybody gets so caught up on metrics rather than our growth and our potential to grow and give more as a result of that deep growth.
TS: Now, you’ve obviously are accomplishing a lot in your life: professor, writer, researcher, comedian, artist, freak-at-large a lot, all at the same time. How do you know when you’re in the cult of overachievement versus just being a turned on high achiever? How do you know the difference?
KL: I think the difference is making sure that the values are leading my behavior. And I think for any of us that suffer in this way and that relapse and try to make it a daily practice to overcome these things, we know it’s not a flip of a switch or something that isn’t a constant effort to maneuver through. I think for myself, I have really integrated a lot of rest time, a lot of reprieve, in order for me to stay and do well. And I think that it’s a burning question. I think the other thing, Tami, I’ll say is for anybody that sees themselves maybe as an identity—as a healer, a leader, an influencer, a caregiver, someone in human work, someone who cares about the human condition—I believe the burning question is, it going to be enough? Is what I do going to be enough? Because we see the trauma at hand, we see the magnitude, the enormity of suffering.
And I think for any of us who are driven towards social change work, elevating the human condition, that’s the hardest piece for me, is knowing when I need to also plug myself back in and when I need to step back. And I think learning to set those boundaries, that’s a process, because I think many of us in that category, we struggle to know when it’s enough. I think it’s the predominant question of our times, given the enormity of our times. But I think ultimately, we have to recognize that we’re human beings, not human doings. We’re not robots, we’re not machines. And our legacy can be so much more when we take that time to restore ourselves and replenish rather than just living on the fringe of well-being all the time and chasing our tails. And I know this is hard in our modern world, there’s a lot of disruptors to well-being, but I think when we set those boundaries and we set those intentions and we match those intentions with our actions and behaviors, we can get traction and momentum that helps us.
TS: Now, Kris, I want to make sure that the listeners who are joining us are leaving this conversation with a microdosing bravery plan of some kind in their life, something that they’re actually going to take action on. Can you help them with that? How do they figure out, OK, it’s a small act, this is the part of my life that’s calling me, these are my values, I’m going to actually do this small thing.
KL: Yes. I would suggest, assess your relationship to risk. Ask yourself, how willing am I to try new things? How willing am I to speak up or live out my values? So, first start with that, and then think about an area, let’s start with a relationship, where you want it to be more connective. And maybe you drop that hint, you start with just a piece of self-advocacy within that relationship—it would mean a lot to me if—that’s a great first step and then see how that goes. Or if you’re a creative person and you’ve always wanted to write or perform, maybe just start by sharing it one-to-one with someone that you feel safe with, and then you can extend from there, what feels comfortable in due time.
TS: All right. Now, towards the end of Worth the Risk, here’s a few sentences that I circled that I thought were really right to the point, “Answering the call to truth is not without consequence.” “Exposure and expulsion are amongst the most frightening propositions we face as a sapient and sentient species.” “Liberation does not come about without a knotted stomach, dramatic sacrifice, and intense peril” —Kris, this is intense writing here. OK—“dramatic sacrifice and intense peril, thus there is a new call to redefine psychological safety.” And I thought, OK, how does Kris suggest we redefine psychological safety in our time, because we have to answer the call to truth, and that means we’re risking exposure and expulsion.
KL: Yes. And not to be taken lightly, for sure. I think the key piece is that our primitive instincts and our social conditioning cause us to think that safety comes from hiding or pretending or presenting our curated versions of ourselves. The new psychological safety at hand in this new world is one in which we can be more free, more liberated to be ourselves, and creating that sense of safety in our environments, in our relationships. So, psychological safety is not brought about through this pretending process, it’s when we’re actually our true selves and we’re seen and we’re revered. That’s when the healing can begin. So, psychological safety is not, again, something that’s just always in reach in a very easy way. But what I want to encourage everyone to think about is, how do you work to build this culture of psychological safety in your organization, your company, in your family, your home and your relationships, your most intimate to your acquaintances, your colleagues, how do you build that?
And it’s not by being fake—fake it until you make it or pretending everything’s OK. It’s through honest ways of being in conversation. I think so many companies right now that I speak with—it’s just so awkward right now. It’s like, how do we attend to the mental health crisis at hand? How do we have honest conversation? How do we be responsive to the actual human needs right now and create that sense of psychological safety and trust? So many companies are asking that. And individuals, how do we build that when everything in the world feels so overwhelming?
I think it begins by the honest truth that we’re telling—that this is scary, it’s hard. And yet, we’re not our trauma, we’re not our automated emotions, we’re not our labels, we’re not what other people are projecting onto us, we’re not our fears. We’re so much more as a species. We’re wired for this resilience and this ability to connect and come out of hiding. And it’s a process. Again, there’s no one-, two-, three-step formula for anyone, but I think this is the process of liberation that we can endeavor in order to create that sense of safety. And if we go about life unsafe, that’s not worth it. It’s not worth risking feeling unsafe to look good. So, it’s a call to action.
TS: You end the book on this notion of people becoming liberators, and I wonder, when you think about that, maybe a mythic human you know and you think, that person, they’re really embodying what it means to be a liberator. What comes up for you?
KL: Georgia O’Keeffe. I start the book with her quote. I have it right here actually. And she says something about, “I’ve been terrified every day of my life, but it’s never stopped me from doing anything I’ve wanted to do.” And just as an artist, she… And I’m obsessed with Georgia O’Keeffe’s work and her story, but there’s a lot of discussion about how her sense of humor emboldened her to take greater creative risks and life risks, whether coming out or her moving, just all the risks she took as a person, as an artist. That’s something that inspires me, that amazing ability to be an artist and live life as an artist in every regard, not just by what she painted, but how she lived her life.
TS: I’ve been talking with Kristen Lee, she’s the author of the beautiful new book, Worth the Risk: How to Microdose Bravery to Grow Resilience, Connect More, and Offer Yourself to the World. Kris, thank you for offering yourself so fully, pouring yourself out. I see it. And you bring up a feeling of reverence in me for the deep work that you’re doing, so thank you so much.
KL: My pleasure. Thank you, Tami.
TS: Thanks for listening to Insights at the Edge. You can read a full transcript of today’s interview at resources.SoundsTrue.com/podcast. That’s resources.SoundsTrue.com/podcast. If you’re interested, hit the subscribe button in your podcast app, and if you feel inspired, head to iTunes and leave Insights at the Edge a review. I absolutely love getting your feedback and being connected. Sounds True: waking up the world.
