Mark Nepo: Holding Nothing Back

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August 29, 2016

Mark Nepo: Holding Nothing Back

Mark Nepo August 29, 2016

Mark Nepo is a poet, philosopher, and spiritual teacher who is the author of numerous books and audio projects, including the New York Times #1 bestseller The Book of Awakening, which made the list of Oprah’s Ultimate Favorite Things. With Sounds True, Mark has published many books and audio courses, including Inside the Miracle: Enduring Suffering, Approaching Wholeness. In this episode of Insights at the Edge, Tami Simon has an intimate conversation with Mark about the two most important lessons he has learned from his journey with cancer, the role of effort and grace in our lives, what it means to take “the exquisite risk,” and how we can shift our perspective to see with the eyes of the heart.
(73 minutes)

Mark Nepo is a poet and philosopher who has taught in the fields of poetry and spirituality for over 40 years. A New York Times #1 bestselling author, he has published 21 books and recorded 14 audio projects. Mark has been interviewed several times by Oprah Winfrey as part of her Super Soul Sunday TV show, and was interviewed by Robin Roberts on Good Morning America. As a cancer survivor, Mark devotes his writing and teaching to the journey of inner transformation and the life of relationship. His work has been translated into more than 20 languages. For more, see marknepo.com.

Author photo © Brian Bankston

Listen to Tami Simon's in-depth audio podcast interviews with Mark Nepo:
Holding Nothing Back »
Becoming the Poem »
Writing Is Listening with Your Heart and Taking Notes »

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Subscribe to Insights at the Edge to hear all of Tami’s interviews (transcripts available too!), featuring Eckhart Tolle, Caroline Myss, Tara Brach, Jack Kornfield, Adyashanti, and many more.

Meet Your Host: Tami Simon

Founded Sounds True in 1985 as a multimedia publishing house with a mission to disseminate spiritual wisdom. She hosts a popular weekly podcast called Insights at the Edge, where she has interviewed many of today's leading teachers. Tami lives with her wife, Julie M. Kramer, and their two spoodles, Rasberry and Bula, in Boulder, Colorado.

Photo © Jason Elias

Also By Author

Mark Nepo: The Half-Life of Angels

How do we know our own authenticity? How can we return to our hearts when we find we’ve left them? As we evolve and change along our journey, how do we relate to the “former selves” in our past? In this podcast, Tami Simon and poet-philosopher Mark Nepo address these questions and more, as they discuss his creative process; his new book, The Half-Life of Angels; and how we can each touch the ever-present and wholly miraculous “spark of becoming” waiting to guide our lives. 

Tune in as Tami and Mark talk about the introspective nature of the creative process; the metaphor of the soul as an inlet; congruency; how the heart shatters but inevitably heals; becoming a student to the mystery of life; the meaning of the word “admit,” and the practice of return; seeing through the lens of the miraculous; the intersection of meditation and creativity; the art of re-visioning; how a commitment to truthfulness grows in concentric circles; living from the deep versus diving and coming back up; the shift from being driven to being drawn; impermanence and perseverance; how the life of expression is one of discovery, relationship, and inquiry; why “there’s always a teacher next to you”; “becoming the poem”; and more.

Note: This episode originally aired on Sounds True One, where these special episodes of Insights at the Edge are available to watch live on video and with exclusive access to Q&As with our guests. Learn more at join.soundstrue.com.

Mark Nepo: Authentic Expression is Heart-Based

“All my work is about devotion to the messy, magnificent human journey”

—Mark Nepo

Every day, we learn. We take in more of the new. And yet, we can only respond to situations based on what we know already. We rely on the old.

Mark Nepo seems to be asking about the space between. What does it mean to grow and change with grace? What does it mean to have faith in that process? And what does this have to do with writing and expression?

We are constantly tasked to face the unknown using tools that may have only worked for us in the past (and that is freaking scary).

I believe that asking questions is elemental to human nature. But, it is impossible to truly know any of the answers.

For Mark, there is no one right way forward. There is no way out of fear. There is only a sensibility that can be adopted: that is, the willingness to listen. 

In other words, there are no objectives. There are no end products. The “answer” is in letting go of resistance to what we know, have, and are.

That way, the invisible can make itself known.

WITNESSING

“How do we talk about the things that matter that you really can’t see?”

—Mark Nepo

The ephemeral connection between ourselves and the world of essence exists within our hearts. With this practice—this practice of inner trust, perhaps even surrender—we can begin to gesture at expressing the unsayable.

What’s clear about Mark Nepo is that he is first and foremost a writer. However, his ideas can be applied to any form of expression.

To bear witness in writing, Mark advises giving full attention to whatever is in front of you, then describing it in as much detail as possible. It’s important not to make it seem magnificent or assign it “a bunch of meaning.”

Don’t evaluate it.

We are the observers and not yet the translators.

There is another part to it. Look inward. Feel what is moving through you at that moment. “Paint” that feeling with words. Don’t judge. Don’t bother with meaning. This disposition is inherently freeing. 

In this state (and I fall in and out of it even as I write this), reality moves up to our eyes like a mirror. We can look at it and hear it, be part of it.

THE INVISIBLE WORLD

“You can’t see light except for what it illuminates. All the forces that hold us and support us are invisible”

—Mark Nepo

We name things all the time. We have to. It keeps chaos at bay.

But, naming things tends to keep us separate from them. That is this and I am this and you are there and I am here.

In his Insights at the Edge episode with Tami, Mark mentions that we are accustomed to listening in this way.

We immediately assign names, places, spaces, reasons, meaning and significance to everything we see and feel. We judge and assume (partly because it is efficient; partly because we are so used to doing it).

This is in stark contrast to the “essence of wholehearted presence, however and whenever that appears.”

IMMERSION

“The truth is, I barely understand half of what comes through me. The other half leads me”

—Mark Nepo

Immersion is a different kind of listening.

Rather than naming, one engages in a mutual conversation with the world. Discovery and creation unite as the byproduct of participation in oneness.

For Mark, immersion is a way to stop resisting our naturalness and be… whatever it is we were meant to be, as humans.

When he talks about “the things that matter,” what he seems to mean is the invisible world, “that which holds us together.” In immersion, we have the chance to interact with the invisible source of our unity.

Like the fiery and untouchable sun from which our individual experiences emanate.

WHOLEHEARTEDNESS

“It’s a gift that we can’t reach what we’re trying to say or what we see, because of all that it gives us”

—Mark Nepo

In his interview, Mark says to Tami about art-making, “What matters more is our wholeheartedness than whether we do it well.”

Tami’s response struck me. “I notice, as you offer that answer, there’s a part of me that really softens.”

Creation can be a meeting place. Rather than prescribing, you meet something somewhere, and then you embrace whatever happens. You accept what is present—and in return, you are accepted just as you are.

Wholeheartedness: letting go of expectation for the sake of the unsayable.

SELF-EXPRESSION

“Just because I write it doesn’t mean that I have the meaning of it all”

—Mark Nepo

As a writing teacher, I often tell my students that if they’re stuck, they may not be empty of ideas. In fact, they may be too full.

Creating space for the heart allows the bubbles to rise up. Like attracts like. We see what we see.

“If you’re not quite there, go back to the heart of whatever the expression is about, and get closer, and get stiller, and put your defenses down, and get closer. … Go back and have a more open heart, and see what comes then.”

Sometimes, it’s unpleasant.

Sometimes, it’s utterly nonsensical.

Poetry, as one possible example of this art, has long emptied itself of pragmatic purpose and precise meaning for the sake of beauty and potentiality.

You may end up with something that you don’t understand for years. You may just take that thing out later and realize what you meant. Authentic expression is not a product. It’s a message from you to you, from the universe to the universe.

And it is always miraculous.

Mark Nepo: Writing Is Listening with Your Heart and Ta...

Mark Nepo is a New York Times bestselling author, poet, and philosopher whose many books include The Book of Awakening, Things That Join the Sea and the Sky, and The One Life We’re Given. Most recently, he has partnered with Sounds True to publish Drinking from the River of Light: The Life of Expression. In this episode of Insights at the Edge, Tami Simon speaks with Mark about about our collective notions around creativity and the societal role of art. Mark details how his own ideas about creative expression have shifted over the decades, as well as why we should try to separate creation from commerce. Mark and Tami talk about the “messy, magnificent journey” of being human and why art must be a “witness to what is.” Finally, they discuss the necessity of holding nothing back during the creative process and why the pursuit of art is also the pursuit of timelessness.(71 minutes)

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Take Your Inner Child on Playdates

Have you ever been ice-skating before? It sounds like a fun winter activity (especially if you enjoy the cold, like I do), but it can be frustrating and even downright scary if you’re new to it.

Picture this: I took my nephew ice-skating for the first time, full of excitement to see him experience some joy. At twelve years of age, he was already taller than me and had size thirteen feet thanks to his six-foot-eight-inch-tall dad (my brother). The biggest rental skates they had came with worn-out laces rather than the secure plastic bindings all of the other skates had. I could see that they were a little loose around the ankle, but we tied them as best we could and hit the ice.

If you’ve ever seen a newborn deer figuring out how to walk for the first time, you can picture my nephew’s first time on ice skates. His ankles kept knocking in, and he was reaching to hold onto anything for dear life as he wobbled around the perimeter of the rink. It was difficult to watch, not because it was embarrassing, but because I know how hard he is on himself when he’s not immediately good at new things. I wanted to see him having fun, and instead I saw him frustrated and discouraged as all he could do was attempt to remain vertical.

I figured it couldn’t get worse, so I suggested that we trade in his skates for a smaller pair with the more secure plastic buckles to see if that made any difference. He went along with it, probably just to humor me, and we stuffed his feet into some size twelves and made sure his ankle support was good as could be. When I tell you it was a night and day difference, I’m not exaggerating. Suddenly he was speeding around the ice like a pro, lapping past me and his sisters with the biggest smile on his face. He circled the rink over and over again; as his confidence grew, so did his joy, and he even began to try tricks and spins. All he had needed was one little adjustment to his foundation, and he suddenly felt safe enough to have fun.

Here’s the thing: most of us go around in our lives on rickety old skates with worn-out laces. When your only focus is doing your best to remain upright, there’s not much room for joy or play. The big shame in that is that play often is the medicine we most need.

In my experience, the crux of inner child work is reconnecting to the part of you who knows how to play. Sometimes you may first need to make some adjustments that allow you to feel safe enough to play, like practicing nervous system regulation and self-soothing. Once you’ve done that, though, your goal is to invite in as much play as possible. And not adult versions of play that are really just a facade for dissociative behaviors, but real, childlike wonder.

Invite in curiosity and awe and silliness and uninhibited joy. Start by returning to the things you loved to do when you were a kid. Maybe that means setting aside time each weekend for arts and crafts. Maybe it means participating in physical activities that feel like play, such as dancing, swimming, sports, or jumping on a trampoline. Maybe it just means giving yourself permission to skip while you walk or sing while you drive.

The point is, when you bring those younger versions of you into your present-day life, you not only have more fun, but you also experience more healing. We were never meant to lose touch with our inner child. Yes, it’s important to learn how to be self-sufficient and responsible, and aging is inevitable. But it’s equally important not to take yourself too seriously along the way.

Try This

Your homework is to set regular playdates with your inner child. Do things that sound like fun, even if they don’t make logical sense. Allow yourself to be as carefree and openhearted as possible, without judging the things that bring you joy. The sillier it feels, the more on point you likely are. Here are some examples to consider:

  • Take an afternoon off of work and go to an amusement park.
  • Schedule an evening of watching your favorite childhood movies.
  • Spend the weekend out in nature, frolicking with your imagination.
  • Try something brand new, like rock climbing or ice-skating, to tap into that feeling of beginner’s mind.

Play is an important part of our overall well-being. Consistently making time to get into that creative flow state will help you deepen your relationship with your inner child . . . and your adult self. I suggest checking in at least once per month, if not weekly, to see where you can fit more play into your life.

Excerpted from Choose Your Self: How to Embrace Being Single, Heal Core Wounds, and Build a Life You Love.

Megan Sherer


Megan Sherer is a certified somatic therapist and licensed hypnotherapist whose mission is to help others build healthy and fulfilling relationships, starting with self. She hosts the Well, Then podcast and founded the women’s therapy app The Self Care Space. For more, visit megansherer.com.

Choose Your Self

Learn More
Amazon | Barnes & Noble | Bookshop | Sounds True

Paul Hawken: A Love Letter to the Flow of Life

The realities of human-driven climate change are only just starting to hit home for many of us. Meanwhile, activists like Paul Hawken—along with the people who have endured the devastating impacts of environmental degradation in the places they call home—continue to raise the alarm for a planet in peril. In this podcast, Tami Simon speaks with the renowned environmentalist and entrepreneur about his latest work, Carbon: The Book of Life, an awe-inspiring read that Tami dubs “a love letter to the flow of life.”

Give a listen to their conversation on: why the climate is never really in crisis (and who is); the narratives of disconnection that perpetuate a sense of separation from life; why “the only way forward is regeneration”; how humanity’s “othering” in order to get ahead just puts us all behind; the concept of flow in the natural world; the extraordinary complexity of life and the trillions of creatures communicating with each other every day; tapping into the power of curiosity and wonder; overcoming the overwhelming inertia of the existing capitalist system; why our grief is a measure of our love; embodying the timeless qualities of compassion, cooperation, and respect; the connection between the loss of Indigenous languages and species loss; apocalypse—the revelation of that which is hidden; how the discovery of fire impacted human evolution; mystical experiences in nature; leadership—listening to all the voices; and more.

Note: This episode originally aired on Sounds True One, where these special episodes of Insights at the Edge are available to watch live on video and with exclusive access to Q&As with our guests. Learn more at join.soundstrue.com.

Helping Kids Feel Confident in the Spotlight

Dear Sounds True friends,

Have you ever been in the spotlight?
The excitement, the lights, and…
…ALL EYES ON YOU (Gulp!)

While some athletes, speakers, and performers bask in the glow, it can be scary for most others. I happen to be one of these “others,” complete with sweaty palms, a racing heart, and a blank mind!

These big feelings inspired me to write All Eyes on You, a story that helps kids overcome performance anxiety when they find themselves the center of attention, such as on stage, in a classroom, or on the baseball field.

I share tried-and-true tips for dealing with these moments (such as breathing exercises and counting to slow down your racing heart) while also having fun (like picturing the audience in their underwear) to help boost confidence and be present in the moment.

It also makes an excellent tool for helping others calm the butterfly stampede in their stomachs and feel a sense of camaraderie that they are not alone in their stage fright.

So when the stage calls (or the front of the classroom or home plate), take a deep breath and give these tips a try. You just might surprise yourself—and those around you!

Break a leg,

Susi Schaefer
Author & Illustrator

P.S. I invite you to download free coloring sheets from the book to also enjoy with the little ones in your life!

Susi Schaefer

Susi Schaefer trained as a classical glass painter in Austria before moving to the United States and studying graphic design. She is the illustrator of Zoo Zen and Good Morning, I Love You, Violet! as well as the author-illustrator of other picture books for children. For more, visit susischaefer.com.

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