Jim Tucker: Thanks.
Tami Simon: you. [00:00:00] Welcome friends to our series once more, exploring Reincarnation and the gap between lives. In this episode, we’re here with Dr. Jim b Tucker, child Psychiatrist and Professor Emeritus of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences at the University of Virginia. For more than 10 years, Jim was the director of the Division of Perceptual Studies at the University of Virginia, where he took over the work of Dr. Ian Stevenson studying reports from children who claimed to remember their past lives. Jim, I’m so glad you’re part of this series that you’re making time for this. Thank you so very much and welcome.
Jim Tucker: Well, thank you. It is great to be here,
Tami Simon: To begin, for people who are hearing about the division of Perceptual studies for the very first time, set the [00:01:00] table for us. What has this division been doing in the halls of the
Jim Tucker: right?
Tami Simon: of Virginia?
Jim Tucker: That’s right in, uh, Jefferson’s University. So, uh, so Ian Stevenson, who was, uh, initially the, the. Became intrigued, uh, by work, looking largely at the question of is there a survival after death? And also sort of the interplay between mind and brain, uh, challenging the idea that brain is, is purely produces what we experience his mind.
So anyway, he stepped down as chair in the late 1960s to start this division that we now call the Division of Perceptual Studies. Um. And we continue to look at those questions and, and in particular, he focused largely, not completely, but largely on cases. Of young children from various parts of the world who said [00:02:00] that they had memories of a previous life.
And, um, I then picked up on that work when, when I joined the university in, in the, uh, late 1990s. And what we do is, um, learn about these cases and study them and see. Can it be verified that what the child reports as memories, that they actually, uh, happened. That there was someone who had the life that the child says they remember, and, um, do the details match and can we be sure that the child did not learn about the past life through some sort of ordinary means.
Tami Simon: I’ve heard the collection of data that you’ve collected. Unquestionably, the best evidence we have for the existence of reincarnation Strong. Statement. But when you say, we gathered some stories, I mean [00:03:00] 2,500 plus case studies. So tell us a little bit about this collection, how the case studies were gathered, and if you were just to introduce me, top line.
Let me tell you what we’ve got in these 2,500
Jim Tucker: Right?
Tami Simon: Give me like a, a one page summary if you
Jim Tucker: Sure. So, yes, they are cases from, uh, all over, including increasingly cases from the US of, uh, a young child. Uh, usually, um, uh. Before school age, uh, who says they have these memories and, and what we have done over the decades is, uh, to determine exactly what the child has said and then to determine is there somebody who lived and died in the past whose life matches what the child says, their number, and it involves.
Um, getting as many witnesses as we can to either verify [00:04:00] or, um, not verify that the child’s memories fit with somebody who lived before. So typically what we would do is meet with the child’s family, um, talk with the child if, if they will talk with us. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t. But find out from the parents, uh, as much as.
They can remember what the child has said. And, and of course we document all that. And then there are some cases where the family has gone out and found that somebody, uh, somebody’s life fit with the child’s details. And then there are other times where we do that kind of work or sometimes there’ve been like journalists or whoever who’ve done the research.
Um. And again, there’s the question of could the child have learned about this through some sort of ordinary means? And sometimes, sometimes the, the children talk about being, uh, someone who lived and died [00:05:00] nearby, or even a, a deceased relative. And in those cases, you know, you can’t be certain. The child didn’t learn about the, the deceased person in some sort of ordinary way.
Uh, but then there are the ones where the child talks about a total stranger to everyone around them in some distant place. And, um, then the task becomes going to that place and, and trying to find, uh, whether, whether the, the details are accurate for somebody who lived. Um, so it, it involves. Approaching each case with completely an open mind when we’re trying to find out, um, is there evidence here supporting the idea that, that this child’s memories are legit.
And, um, so it in involves. Documenting as much as possible and as carefully as possible, and getting into the details and considering various possibilities and trying to determine, uh, [00:06:00] again, sort of the strength of the evidence for each case, um, what it adds up to. And, and then we can look at the groove as a whole to look at the database with our 2,500 cases, and also look at patterns in the cases.
Tami Simon: I wanna hear more about the patterns before I do. notice that over the last few weeks as I’ve talked to various people that I know about this interview with you and how interesting it is to study these cases. A lot of people immediately get, I guess they just, like, they, they immediately go to a sort of skeptical brush off that this must be, BS in, in one way or another.
It just can’t be true. And I’ve been asking myself, why is this response from certain people so immediate? It, it, it’s like I’m offending them by. Sharing [00:07:00] with them what’s been happening for five plus decades at the University of Virginia through rigorous examination. So what do you think?
Why is this so offensive to a certain group of people? They’re like, no, it can’t be factual.
Jim Tucker: Well, I think for one thing, it really challenges people’s worldview and it also does it in a way that may seem. Fantastic. I mean, if you were talking with someone who says, I get visited by aliens every night, or I get, uh, the Angel Gabriel comes to me every night or whatever. I mean, I think a lot of us, our initial reaction would be, but that sounds kind of incredible.
Um.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who, uh, dismiss the work without ever taking a look at it, you know, which is frankly not a very scientific approach. Right. Um, so, um, there are [00:08:00] people who. Are open to considering the work and people who aren’t and, and you know, so be it. I mean, I mean, I’m not trying to convince somebody that, uh, they should spend their time delving into this, but if they’re curious about it and curious about the question of, can, can part of our consciousness continue on after the body dies?
Well then I think it’s worth taking a look.
Tami Simon: Okay. Well, I’m deeply interested in this question. It’s. Probably the central question throughout my life that’s fueled a big part of my spiritual search.
Jim Tucker: Hmm.
Tami Simon: What happens when we die and does consciousness continue and what do we know about that consciousness that continues? And that’s why this study once more of what or who reincarnates is so personally interesting to
Jim Tucker: Right, right.
Tami Simon: Looking at it, you said there are [00:09:00] certain patterns in the 2,500 cases that seem to, uh, come forward. And what I’d like to do, Jim, if it’s okay, is talk about this from a sort of factual, here’s the evidence, here’s what we have, and then later we can talk about, well, how do we interpret this? But
Jim Tucker: Sure.
Tami Simon: sort of, right now, just look at this snapshot.
Here’s the patterns that we see.
Jim Tucker: Okay. Um, so typically it starts with, like I said, very young children. Uh, the average age when a child starts talking about a purported past life is 35 months. So it’s usually a two or 3-year-old who starts coming out with these things. And then of course they can elaborate them as the, their language skills improve.
Um, but they do tend to have good language skills anyway, so we’ve done psychological testing with some of them, and, um, first of all, they’re not. Psychotic or dissociating or whatever. The, the one thing that stands out from the [00:10:00] testing is they tend to be quite intelligent and quite verbal. Um, so you’ve got these bright young kids who are reporting these things and along with it can come other features like behavioral features.
So, well, first of all, most of the children, um. Describe a, uh, life that ended in some sort of unnatural means. Some sort of violent means, meaning murder, suicide, accident, combat, that sort of thing. Uh, so three quarters of the kids talk about how they died in the past life, and, and of those 70% is by some sort of unnatural means with those unnatural means cases.
Um. 35% of those kids will also show a phobia toward that mode of death. Um, so. For instance, a girl who, um, [00:11:00] hated being in water basically from the time she was born. And when she was an infant, it would take three adults to hold her down to, to give her a bath. And uh, then when she got old enough to talk, described the life of a girl in another village who had drowned in an accident.
And again, we see these intense fears related to what they say are their memories of things that they’ve experienced. Um. A lot of them will also show a lot of emotions about this material. It’s, it is not someone just reading off a list of facts, and it is not just general knowledge, but more of things from one particular point of view, which they say was who they were before.
And they may show great, uh, emotion, talking about. The previous family and talking about wanting to see the previous family, great emotion about the death. Um, some of them can have nightmares about. Um, [00:12:00] what they describe as death in the past life. Uh, so it, it’s, uh, um, it, it’s a completely, uh, involved picture and involves a lot of aspects of their personality.
Um, and again, and, and the cases that provide the strongest evidence. People have documented what the child said. And then, um. Gone and looked and found that in fact, somebody, uh, did, uh, have a life that matched, uh, what the child had said. Um, and then by the time the children get to be six or seven, typically they stop talking about these things and they just kind of go on with their lives.
Uh, we recently did a study and, and my colleague, Marietta Anova was, was the, um. Uh, was the primary author on this, but of talking with adults who we studied initially when they were kids reporting these things. And you know, this work’s been going [00:13:00] on since the 1960s, so some of these have grown up. And what we found is basically.
They’re doing well. Um, uh, educationally, uh, they had probably above average as far as the number with either undergrad degrees but or also postgraduate, uh, degrees and occupationally. They were doing well. It just sort ran the gamut. Um. Emotionally, they, um, I mean there were some depression and anxiety, but, but it didn’t stand out anymore than probably in the general population.
And, and, uh, you know, most of them were having happy, sort of normal adulthoods.
Tami Simon: How did your predecessor, Dr. E Ian Stevenson, and then you find these 2,500 cases.
Jim Tucker: Well, so Ian started where he could find the cases, which typically is in cultures with a belief in reincarnation. So he would hear about, he published a paper [00:14:00] where he just reviewed, uh, cases from the past that had been previously in journals or newspapers or whatever, and wrote them up. And following that, he started hearing about cases.
So. He got a small grant to go to India to study cases, and, and he’d heard about five of them by the time he went there, and then he was there for a month and found 25. And so he started developing colleagues in different places who would look for cases and, and you know, places. Back then, at least in India, Thailand, various places they might be in the stories might be in the newspapers.
Um, but anyway, hi. His associates would learn of cases. They’d contact him and then after he’d heard about enough of ’em, then he would go there and study the cases. But in more modern times. So, you know, since we set up our website, which has been over 25 years ago now, um, we don’t really have to go [00:15:00] looking for.
Cases because the cases find us. So we’re getting emails all the time now from, uh, mostly American parents who report that their child is talking about a past life and, and they’ve, um, they’ve been averaging now over 120 a year of, uh, of contacts from families with their child talking about her past life.
Tami Simon: In your book, life Before Life, you write about another characteristic, another pattern in these stories of young children that happens. The percentage seemed some fit between 15 and 20% of the time, but I found this really extraordinary that there are birth marks or some other physical sign, like a birth defect that is type of reflection of the painful death the [00:16:00] previous incarnation that the child’s remembering.
I wonder if you can give us some examples of that.
Jim Tucker: Right,
Tami Simon: bending.
Jim Tucker: right. And first of all, as far as how. Prevalent it is, the percentage is a little hard to judge because Ian Stevenson, he was interested in psychosomatic medicine before he ever got into this. So the connection between mind and body. So these birthmark cases he really sought out and you know, we had to select which cases do we study and, and he would certainly study the birthmark cases.
Um, so, so anyway, it is. It’s hard to know what the actual percentage is, but in any event, uh, I mean he, he published, uh, a two volume series with over 200 of these cases. And, and, um, yeah, it’s kids with birthmarks or even full birth defects that match wounds. Usually, not always, but usually the fatal wound, uh, that the previous person experienced.
And so, for instance, there was [00:17:00] this, um. A little girl who remembered the life of a man who had gotten his fingers chopped off as he was being murdered. And she was born with very deformed fingers. Um, there was a little boy who. Remember the life of a boy from another village who had, um, lost the fingers of his right hand in a fodder chopping machine.
And that, that was not a fatal one in his case, but it was, uh, obviously a traumatic one. Um, and then the second little boy was born where his left hand was particular, uh, was uh, completely normal. Uh, but his right hand just had stubs for fingers. Um, so. Um, and then, I mean, we’ve also, it’s most obvious ones that you can see, but we have had, like, there’s an American case of a heart defect, uh, that matched very closely, uh, the wounds that the previous person, he had been shot in the robbery, uh, the [00:18:00] wounds that he had suffered.
So they can be internal as well. Um. So the, you know, the question that I and other people have asked that, how could that happen? I mean, even if you believe in reincarnation, how, how does a wound on a previous body show up, uh, on a child and. The way that I like to view it is that sort of a phenomenon of consciousness.
It’s not literally the, um, the injury on the body that gets transferred, but rather, uh, the consciousness, uh, is aware of that image, uh, of the injury and then takes it. With it to the next developing fetus and then sort of imprint it on the developing fetus. And, and there are similar phenomenon that are consistent with that idea.
So, um, there have been numerous cases published of. [00:19:00] Hypnotizing, someone who, who’s particularly suggestible and then telling them, for instance, that they’re being touched with, with a hot burner and just touching ’em with a pencil or a finger or something. And then they develop blisters like they were burned, uh, or sometimes cases of, of reliving traumatic memories.
And, and then develop like one famous case, then developing marks, uh, on their arms after the, the, uh, person had been, um. Tied up in, in a traumatic event. So sometimes, um, images can produce very specific effects on the body, on the scanner, on the body, and, and that would be similar to if you accept that consciousness has continued on, it would be a very similar phenomenon with the, uh, mark showing up on, on the developing fetus.
Tami Simon: You know, you’re such a great emissary for this work, Jim, because you’re professorial with your glasses and your, uh, [00:20:00] serious and loving demeanor presenting this all quite, uh, scientifically. I’m
Jim Tucker: Yeah.
Tami Simon: so happy that, uh. You’re the ambassador here
Jim Tucker: Well,
Tami Simon: Perceptual study
Jim Tucker: well,
Tami Simon: Yeah.
Jim Tucker: thank you. The, the glasses are not, uh, for cosmetic effects, but, um, uh, ’cause I need them to see, but, but I’m, I’m, you know, I, I think. It’s, I mean, what you say professorial, I mean, it’s accurate. I mean that the, you know, we are not, we have never been sort of true believers who are out to convince people, um, based on any kind of faith on us, but more of us trying to document, uh, what the evidence shows and, and then let people make their own decisions about it.
Tami Simon: All right. Well, we said we’d start with laying out the database of facts from a very, very, very, very top line view. And then talk some about how do we interpret this, how do we make sense of it? And in, in your [00:21:00] books, you described that there are the. of, well, let’s bang on this. Is this fraud? And did people find out about this from someone in the village or some, and let’s just for a moment, put that aside and say, has scientifically rigorously documented that these utterances and memories are coming out of young children without any. Contamination, including birthmarks in some percentage that match a previous death of a violent person. Okay, this is our here. What do we make of it? And in your books, you describe three possible ways we could look at it and uh, there may be, uh, more and one of them is reincarnation. Let’s put that
Jim Tucker: Hmm.
Tami Simon: a moment. Another is. Could a young child be tapping [00:22:00] in to some kind of collective unconscious, the sigh field of knowing and, and I’m wondering what you make of that possibility.
Jim Tucker: Well, I think it’s certainly worth considering. I, I mean, I think, you know, if there is this realm of consciousness that that is intermingled with our physical reality, but also suffer from it. It’s almost certainly. Too complex for us to understand and, and not necessarily linear the way we think of things.
So I, I, you know, we tend to talk in terms that are sort of black and white, but it, but it may be very fuzzy gray, but, um, I mean, certainly what the cases appear to be is not part of this overall large one. Consciousness, oh, that can be interpreted that way. But an individual consciousness that has continued on.
And certainly from the child’s perspective, it is not tapping [00:23:00] into a knowledge base, but more it is recalling experiences. And again, it, it is not just knowing facts like, you know, a psychic or whatever. Um, it’s, uh. Uh, the full picture and the emotional aspects of having experienced these things. I also think, you know, the birthmarks and birth defects, I mean, you can come up with an explanation, how it could be, uh, reaching into a larger consciousness.
Um, but it gets a little complicated. The other part of this that, that, uh, weighs in on this discussion is that, um, about 20% of the kids will talk about events. Happening between lives, so after they died in the last life that they, um, had things happen to them and, and occasionally can give verifiable details either about the previous family and what they were doing or about their upcoming [00:24:00] family, about their parents and things that were happening between the lives.
So that would suggest that there’s this element of consciousness that. Um, has carried through and is able to obtain new information and have new experiences. So that would certainly suggest an individual consciousness continuing on.
Tami Simon: Can you share a story with me about someone who knew what was happening between lives and was able to a young child who was able to share that information?
Jim Tucker: Uh, sure. So there’s one little boy, uh, in, uh, the us uh, a little boy named Ryan, uh, who I’ve, uh, talked about and, and they’ve been on TV some, but anyway, um, when he was little, he. Asked his mom about, um, he said that he [00:25:00] saw her go to the doctor and find out that she was having a boy and she got very angry and told the doctor that he was wrong, went out to dinner with her husband and cried through the whole meal, um, uh, because she was gonna have a boy.
Well, it turned out that Ryan’s parents, uh, his father had been married before and had children. So the deal was that they would only have one child, um, for their life. And, uh, Ryan’s mom very much wanted a little girl. So when she went for the ultrasound, she did get very upset when she learned that, that she was having a boy.
And then I think it was the father’s birthday anyway, they went out to dinner and she did cry through the whole meal. Later, of course, she was very ashamed of the way that she had reacted and she had certainly never told Ryan about it, and, and yet he told her about it. Um, there’s another American case of very well known [00:26:00] one, um, James Leininger who, um.
Seemed to remember the life of World War II Pilot. Uh, but one time he said to his father that, um, he was glad that he had chosen, uh, him to be his father and his dad asked him what he meant. And, uh, James said that, yeah, he had seen his parents at a big hotel in Hawaii, big pink hotel in Hawaii, and that they were.
Um, eating on, eating dinner on the beach, and he had decided that he wanted to be born to them. Well before he was born, uh, his parents did take a trip to Hawaii and they did stay at a big pink hotel, and they did have dinner on the beach their last night there. And it was during that trip that they started trying to conceive, uh, they didn’t actually get pregnant for a couple more months, but that was when the intention started.
And, uh. James had seemingly, uh, [00:27:00] reported to his dad just what, what his parents had done.
Tami Simon: Okay. I think I get a flavor of the stories, and correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like when you. Describe this not being, just like reading a psychic field, you’re saying, no, that doesn’t, that explanation doesn’t really work for me because you’re, uh, uh, picturing some kind of individual consciousness of some kind that’s observing versus like reading the thought fields of mom and dad or
Jim Tucker: Right. Right. Uh, yeah. And other people have wondered whether there is this. Other consciousness from the past life that is, I’m blocking out the term, but sort of overhanging on, on this child. And so that the child thinks it’s their memories, but actually it’s another one. And you know, that I, I would say you can’t disprove that [00:28:00] idea, certainly not the simplest way of, of explaining the phenomenon.
But, but that doesn’t mean it’s not correct. Um.
Tami Simon: You know, in this conversation, uh, for me, I’m just wanting to pull on various things
Jim Tucker: Sure.
Tami Simon: at it. I mean, I, I don’t, it’s not like this is some, uh, definitive answer. You’ve done so much research though, and these stories tell us something.
Jim Tucker: Right.
Tami Simon: they tell us, I think is. Uh, the subject of our exploration investigation.
So it brings us to this other question, and as I’ve shared these stories of young children with people. Several people that I know have said, oh, that’s possession Tammy, that’s, uh, the spirit of the departed has hung around someplace because it didn’t fully cross over and now it’s attaching itself to the young child. That’s a, an [00:29:00] explanation that’s different than reincarnation sounds more logical to me. I wonder, uh, I’m not sure about that, but what do you make of it?
Jim Tucker: Well, if you’re gonna accept the birthmark and birthday case, uh, cases, it would mean possession started while they were in utero. Um, so I’m not sure. Exactly how that’s different from reincarnation, really. I mean, if it’s inhabiting the body, um, and again, it, it, I mean basically these memories are exceptions, but typically they start coming out when, as soon as the child can talk.
So I mean, it’s very early on. Um, so again, the distinction between possession and reincarnation, uh, may not be as clear cut as. As people might think. Um, and unless you’re arguing that there are sort of two spirits there, that there’s the child’s and, and then there’s this attached one, uh, that’s providing the memories.
Tami Simon: is the, that is the argument.
Jim Tucker: Yeah.[00:30:00]
Tami Simon: it’s an attached
Jim Tucker: Right.
Tami Simon: of some kind.
Jim Tucker: Um, but, but not one that takes over the body. I mean, or it takes over the, the whole person, you know, like
Tami Simon: it could merge with the person like
Jim Tucker: Right,
Tami Simon: that’s
Jim Tucker: right.
Tami Simon: and sort of melding with them.
Jim Tucker: Yeah, and again, I mean, that’s certainly worth considering and I’m not sure why people would view that as any more likely than, than reincarnation, but, you know, we, we all have our views of, of what seems incredible versus something we can consider.
Tami Simon: I think the argument around that is that after a violent death of soul could be confused about its dying, hang around, and then want to still, I mean, this is the argument that I’ve heard people. Oppose and, you know, want to stay attached to a nearby family or something like that.
Jim Tucker: Right. So which would be the same, uh, pattern as [00:31:00] if, if it was reincarnation that Yeah, I mean that the soul or spirit or whatever we wanna call it, the conscious is tied to this realm, uh, more so than. Others would be. And so they’re, they’re looking for, uh, a family or, or looking for a body to, uh, then start a new life with.
Tami Simon: Now, Jim, you’ve been immersed in this field and this study, and you’ve talked to a lot of really bright people about how we can look at this data and I wonder if you could share with me. It’s pretty obvious. We know like if you look at this, here’s what we know and here’s what I think is more in a realm of, Hmm, we have theories, but we’re not quite sure. How would you divide that? What do we know?
Jim Tucker: Well, I mean, you’re talking about knowing a hundred percent certain, you know, I mean [00:32:00] that gets sort of questionable. But I, but I think we can say, I think we can say we have good evidence that some young children have. Knowledge about a life from the past. Uh, and that’s sort of stated as neutrally as possible.
Um, and then like you say, then there’s the question of, okay, well what do we make of that? And I, I would say at the least, that there is this element of consciousness that. In one form or another, seems to be present and seems to interact with the physical world and the physical body, but not necessarily be wholly dependent on it.
Um, because however we frame it, there are these memories, or at least this knowledge that has carried on after somebody died. Um, and. I don’t think you can take these cases and just sort of map them on to, uh, [00:33:00] materialistic, uh, understanding of reality. I mean, if you accept them, then I, I think we have to look at the idea that there is this consciousness that is, um, um, again, not wholly dependent on on our brains or, or on this, even this physical world.
Uh, so. I, I have come to the conclusion and, and other people far brighter than I am. Like Max Plank, the founder of Quantum Theory, come to the conclusion that consciousness is fundamental and that physical matter, uh, is derived from consciousness, but, but that ultimately, uh, consciousness is what is at the core of things.
Tami Simon: Would you be willing to give me your working definition of consciousness?
Jim Tucker: Well, right. That gets tricky and, and some [00:34:00] people, um,
have a different definition for mine versus consciousness. I just sort of lump it all together. But it’s, it’s, um. From my standpoint, it is thoughts, but not just thoughts that it, that they, uh, sort of coalesce into an entity. Uh, and it may be that there’s this grand, large entity of consciousness and that the physical world is all derived from it.
Um, but it may also be that. There’s this large consciousness realm and that there are a lot of branches from it. And we each have, you know, a branch from the, the larger, um, uh, mothership, so to speak. And so we are all separate, but also all connected. [00:35:00] So, you know, it’s kind of like, um. Islands in the sea where there, there are distinct individual islands, but underneath the surface, if you go far enough, they’re all connected.
Um, and my feeling is that there’s something like that, that is, there’s this sea of consciousness, while I’m mixing metaphors here, but, but that there is consciousness that produces the physical world that we experience and our. Brains, uh, serve as sort of vehicles to experience these things and, and to, um, observe things.
Um, and it’s probably, uh, a vehicle that, that ultimately all, uh, starts from the same place.
Tami Simon: After all of the you’ve done, what’s your own sense of dying for you? Like, [00:36:00] oh, here’s how I sort of feel into it now when I imagine it.
Jim Tucker: For when I imagine it for myself, you mean?
Tami Simon: Yeah.
Jim Tucker: Well.
Tami Simon: Yeah.
Jim Tucker: Yeah, I, I’ve kind of decided that, um, figuring out whether there’s life after death or whatever is, is. Not as important as just experiencing the present that we have. And, um, I, I certainly don’t encourage people to do past life regression work or whatever, trying to sort out who they were before. I mean, look at who you are now and, and what you wanna get out of the life that you’re having.
Um, so. Yeah. As far as my own death, I mean, I hope that on my deathbed, um, I can look back and, and feel like that. I have the life [00:37:00] sort of that I was meant to have and, and you know, the, we each find meaning in life in different ways. And, um, you know, for me it’s largely been sort of the love that I shared with my family.
You know, my wife, my kids, my grandkids, um, but also the work as, as a active child psychiatrist. I, you know, I know that. I helped a lot of families and, and you know, I also did this intriguing work. So in any event, uh, I think I can, you know, now that I’ve more or less retired, um, that puts me in the frame of mind of sort of looking ahead at, at kind of, you know, this is the later chapters of my life and, and I think when I get to the end of it.
I certainly hopes that I continue on. I mean, the idea of, of, um, personal non-existence, you know, isn’t, uh, doesn’t hold a lot of charm for me. Uh, but regardless of whether I continue to exist or not, I [00:38:00] hope that I can, can experience as much meaning, uh, between now and then as as possible.
Tami Simon: This notion that the material world, the physical world. Comes out of consciousness, grows out of consciousness, I think is the phrase you used. How does that play for you in the present moment? Like how does that, how does that work inside of you? When you going about your life? You’re like, oh, this insight, which is the insight you’ve taken from all of these different cases, how does that change you?
Jim Tucker: Well, I mean, to be honest, from day to day, from, um, you know, ordinary life things, I’m, I’m not sure that it does. But, um, I hope that that kind of concept can help me not get stuck on the. Small things so [00:39:00] much and, um, you know, be able to sort of accept the irritations and imperfections, uh, of life and, and just appreciate, um, more that, that, um, this is an opportunity to have experiences and to, um, you know, it doesn’t matter if, if.
I dunno, the car behind, uh, the car ahead of me is going too slow or whatever, but more just take it all in experience it, hopefully help grow as, as a person, as a consciousness. I mean, I’ve, I’ve come to realize that. Our development, it never stops. It’s not like when we get 18 or 21 or whatever we’re fully formed.
I mean, at at 65. I feel like I’m still trying to develop, uh, as, as sort of a better person and, and you know, if we view this life, this lifetime as an, as an opportunity to [00:40:00] experience things and to grow, um, then. Hopefully we can take advantage of that and, and that I think, um, I realize I’m not exactly answering all of your questions precisely, but I, I, I think feeling like that this is, um, has this physical world is simply an outgrowth of consciousness or creation consciousness allows us to, to look at trying to, um, work on our consciousness and, and, and, uh, make it better.
Tami Simon: As a reincarnation researcher, if you will. What kind of research do you think could be done that the case for reincarnation would be a lot stronger? Like, oh, if only we could do X, Y, Z, then public respect would really increase, but we just haven’t found a way to do it yet.
Jim Tucker: Well, a couple of things. [00:41:00] So, um, two of my colleagues at, at the University, Marietta, ANOVA and, uh, Philip Cono, they have gotten funding to do a study that is starting to look at what potential mechanisms could be for this phenomenon. Um, and. That has, uh, the potential, uh, down the road to I think really, um, get people’s attention.
Uh, and
Tami Simon: What are they doing? How are they trying
Jim Tucker: well,
Tami Simon: this?
Jim Tucker: there are different aspects of it and, and some of it is trying to sort out, um. Well, for instance, so there are a couple of hypotheses that are worth exploring. One is, is this a phenomenon of exceptional memories? So, uh, as you may know, there are some people who have essentially universal autobiographical [00:42:00] memories.
So if you say, what were you doing on April 2nd, 1978? They can tell you. And, um, so they may perform uncertain. Kinds of testing, like psychological testing or um, brain scans. Uh, they may show particular patterns. So then we could then look with these individuals and see, do you see the same patterns? Um, where would be a case of exceptional memory.
The other possibility is, um. Is this essentially a phenomenon like PTSD? Is it that the trauma that so many of the pre people experience, does that cause the memories to stay, even though you’d want to get rid of ’em? Just like in PTSD? So again, you can look at kinds of tests to see how the brain, um, um, deals with certain events.
And c is that similar to how these. Individuals, uh, experience things. So then ultimately, can you get down to [00:43:00] what is the brain doing, uh, and how are these brains different from other people’s brains that allow them to do it, to access memories from previous life? Um, a couple of other things that I think can make a difference.
One is yes, we have 2,500 cases. Some are stronger than others. Uh, many of them are in other cultures. If we could get 50 American cases as strong as the ones I mentioned, Ryan and James, um, I think those that would make it very hard to, uh, ignore this phenomenon. Uh, and then lastly, I’ll say, you know, not just this work, but parapsychology in general has always.
Struggled with, uh, how do you incorporate the findings with what we think we know about the world and reality? And, and I think if, if there’s a way in [00:44:00] to, to mesh these together, I think it will probably come through physics and, and in particular, um, uh, quantum physics and, you know. Explore some pretty wild ideas of, um, quantum theorists do, and, and I think if ones come out that at least allow for these phenomenon and may even sort of require them, uh, and if those theories can get more acceptance, uh, then I think people would then look at this work and look at the evidence more carefully than, than maybe many people do now.
Tami Simon: Can you be a little more specific? What Parapsychological theories you’re talking about here?
Jim Tucker: Uh, well with parapsychology, sort of the lack of, um, theories that that’s the problem. Um, you know, you’ve got all this evidence of. Things like precognition or clairvoyance that you know, are shown in very tightly controlled test situations. But then what do [00:45:00] you make of it? ‘ cause it seems to conflict with how we think the world works.
Um, but quantum theory, again, can put consciousness at the forefront of reality. And, um, I think many of the things that we, um, find in our field, um. Can be incorporated into. Quantum theories and, and the idea of collapse of the wave function and, and, uh, that, um, uh, consciousness causes collapse and, and various things that I know we don’t wanna get into.
But I, but I, I think certainly, uh, classical physics, I mean, is, you know, is the mechanistic, uh, Newton sort of mechan. Clockwork kind of universe. But we now know that that is a very incomplete picture of reality. Um, and when we get at the quantum level, things get a whole lot more interesting.
Tami Simon: Just to put you on the spot here, Jim, even more than I’ve [00:46:00] already done, if I were to say, what do you make of the fact that so many of these memories are of violent deaths from the
Jim Tucker: Right.
Tami Simon: you make of that?
Jim Tucker: Um. I think that those memories, uh, again, I think it’s similar to PTSD, that uh, those memories become hard to get rid of. And, and along with those can come other memories about the life, how many you remember, you know, being, um, decapitated or whatever. Then you’re gonna remember some of the circumstances.
Um, but I also think that it may be that it’s an example of where the process gets short circuited, that sort of the. Normal process is that we have this experience and then. We continue on in some form, but not necessarily coming back here. I mean, there may be all kinds of consciousness created [00:47:00] realities that we can explore, but with something like a traumatic death, that natural process is not able to occur.
And instead, uh, the, the consciousness gets kind of more, uh, tightly bound to this reality. So, uh, then reincarnation would happen.
Tami Simon: Okay. Continuing with putting you on the spot, talking about the quantum world and consciousness, creating the material plane, it gets. Pretty abstract. What I’d like to know is from your, all the investigation you’ve done, do you think, well, look, you die, you go through a journey and you come back as being you reincarnate, sometimes you don’t.
Maybe there’s exceptional circumstances, maybe you reincarnate someplace else, but basically, yes, once more, that’s what I think happens. Is that true, Jim? Or how would you put it in your [00:48:00] own words?
Jim Tucker: Well, I don’t think it would just be like beads on a string. You have one life, then you have the neck the next, the next. Um, and I think there may be different aspects. So. I mean, I, we know that personality is affected by genetics, uh, is affected by early experiences. So it’s not like, uh, you’re a complete clean slate as far as, uh, my point being I wouldn’t come back as me, but I think that there is a part of me that may be able to continue on and, um, but then it goes in, into a new.
Fetus with its genes and then its early experiences. So, no, it’s not that Jim will have a bunch of successive lives, but there may be sort of a, a larger self or, or sort of a, a, um, uh, sort of at a distance where, uh, that aspect of me. [00:49:00] Continues on. Um, so that there’s a metaphor sometimes used in Buddhism where it’s like there’s a candle being lit and as it burns down lower, uh, another candle takes that flame and then continues on.
So it’s. Jim, you know, will die at some point in, in the future. Um, but there may be this aspect of me, uh, that then continues on and, and in rare circumstances even continues on with, with some of the memories of his life.
Tami Simon: As part of this series, I’ve interviewed someone who’s deeply steeped in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition and also a Vedic lineage holder, and asked them each. This question, or who, reincarnates, what aspect of our consciousness, what aspect of Jim is gonna reincarnate? And the Tibetan Buddhist teacher, Andrew Hoek, said, well, CHG, a Tibetan teacher said, it’s your bad habits, your bad habits reincarnate. And that sort of was a shorthand. to these habitual patterns are a Vedic lineage holder. Charya talked about our deep attachments and clingings and things we can’t let go of. I wonder how you see that in terms of what continues in consciousness.
Jim Tucker: Well, I hope it’s more than bad habits. I mean, uh, I, um, and, and I know, you know, that the, um, Buddhist, like it can be a very complex kind of, uh, um, worldview and, and beyond my understanding of it. But, um, you know, I, I like to think again that, that we each have this piece of the larger consciousness that continues on with.
Hopefully with, again, we use this lifetime to develop so it shapes our, that individual piece, um, but not just. As far as bringing bad habits or, or bringing, I mean, I don’t know if at attachments would be considered a good thing or bad thing in, in that kind of description, but the, the, you know, we, the love that we share, the connections that we’ve had, uh, in some ways have affected us, uh, have improved us, and, and then we continue on in sort of the improved state.
Um, now I will say, I was talking with a Zen Buddhist one time and I asked him, how, how do you, um, put impermanence and reincarnation now? How do those two fit together? And his answer was, uh, that reincarnation is not a, not a central tenant of Buddhism. Um, so I, I guess there are different takes about, uh, what we make.
Tami Simon: I think I’m gonna, I think I’m gonna edit out this last
Jim Tucker: Hmm.
Tami Simon: ’cause I don’t, I don’t, I, I don’t wanna miss, um. don’t wanna misrepresent our two authors and I, I fear that I, I fear that I might
Jim Tucker: Okay. Well, and yeah,
Tami Simon: that
Jim Tucker: I’m, I’m happy for it to lay that answer out.
Tami Simon: Yeah, I think we’ll
Jim Tucker: Yeah.
Tami Simon: question and answer out. And so, Jim, I just need to figure out a way to land the plane here that’s gonna be inspiring to people.
Um, sorry about
Jim Tucker: Uh, no worries.
Tami Simon: just gimme, gimme a
Jim Tucker: Sure.
Tami Simon: uh, moment here. As we, as we conclude, Jim, you shared with me how in your work at the University of Virginia, you’ve looked at this through the lens of science, keeping an open mind, and if you were to. Make a final appeal to people who are listening consider the research that has been done that you’ve written about. [00:50:00] Terrific stories shared in your books, life Before Life and Return to Life. Both volumes are now available in a two volume edition called Before Children’s Memories of Previous Lives. How would you like us to look at these stories of children’s memories?
Jim Tucker: Well, I think they provide evidence, uh, along with other kinds of work, like near death experiences that my colleague Bruce Grayson studies so carefully, um, evidence that there is a part of us that continues and, you know, there are many people who. Except that in general, so I mean, people who are religious, uh, people who are Christians believe that part of us continues.
And this, along with faith, uh, this work indicates that, that there can actually be evidence of that, uh, that that one can [00:51:00] decide, uh, uh, can conclude, uh, that that is, uh, the most likely. Outcome force that that a part of us continues. And, and I think if people are intrigued by that and intrigued by the idea of having evidence for it, then by all means check out this work and, and decide for yourself.
So, you know, there are a lot of people who are kind of put off by the idea of reincarnation, um, because. Really has not been a part of our culture or our religions. Um, but if, if you look at the bigger picture, uh, the idea that we continue on after we die, then, then I think, uh, people can find the work, uh, to be, uh, useful to them.
Tami Simon: Dr. Jim Tucker, thank you so much for being part of our series once more, exploring reincarnation and the gap between lives. Thank you.
Jim Tucker: Of course. Thanks very much for having me.
