Tami Simon: Hello friends, my name’s Tami Simon and I’m the founder of Sounds True, and I want to welcome you to the Sounds True podcast, Insights at the Edge. I also want to take a moment to introduce you to Sounds True’s new membership community and digital platform. It’s called Sounds True One. Sounds True One features original premium transformational docuseries, community events, classes to start your day and relax in the evening, special weekly live shows, including a video version of Insights at the Edge with an after-show community question-and-answer session with featured guests. I hope you’ll come join us, explore, come have fun with us, and connect with others. You can learn more at join.soundstrue.com.
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In this episode of Insights at the Edge, my guest is Andrea Owen. Andrea is an author, a global keynote speaker, and she’s a professional certified life coach, who helps high-achieving women maximize unshakeable confidence and master resilience. Her books include Make Some Noise, How to Stop Feeling Like Sh*t, and 52 Ways to Live a Kick-Ass Life. She’s taught hundreds of thousands of women tools and strategies to empower themselves through her speaking appearances, her consulting and coaching services, and her wildly popular podcast.
With Sounds True, Andrea Owen has created a new audio teaching series; it’s really an audio immersion workshop. It’s called Getting Damn Good at Life: Strategies for Managing Your Inner Critic, Growing Confidence, and Experiencing More Happiness Now. I have to say I love talking to Andrea, because she’s the kind of person you can share your mind with, you can share your heart with. You don’t have to hold back, and she doesn’t hold back her responses either. Here’s my conversation with a damn good life coach, Andrea Owen.
Andrea, I’d love to begin, if you will, with the origin story, however you want to tell it, of the work you do today. What do you trace as the antecedents that led to you doing the type of coaching, and speaking, and teaching work that you do?
Andrea Owen: Thank you for asking that. And it’s a kind of dramatic story. I was not born an evolved person, like many of my colleagues are. But I have always been interested in personal development. When I was in my twenties—this was back in the ‘90s—and I was interested in life coaching, and it was a very, very new career at that point. Hardly anyone knew what it was. And the long and short of how I got here was, I knew that to be a life coach, you needed life experience, and I didn’t have a whole lot back then. And I was married at the time, and my then-husband and I had been together for many, many years since we were teenagers. We always knew we wanted to start a family, but he had an affair with our neighbor and got her pregnant as we were discussing having our first child. I was devastated.
We did split up, and I started dating someone whom I fell madly in love with, which was probably a mistake right out of the gate of my divorce. And it turns out that the long and short of that, sadly that person conned me, basically, and was a drug addict, and it was very sad. And I found myself on the floor in my apartment in the fetal position asking myself, I think, that question that so many people ask themselves, is “How did I get here? I am the common denominator in all of this.”
So what’s also interesting, and how this is such a full-circle moment for me, having this conversation with you, is that in that moment on the floor in my apartment, I decided to change my life, and I threw myself into personal development. And Sounds True was one of—I mean I used to get the catalog. Back then there were MP3s—I think there were CDs back then, but it was the genesis of audio. And I had it all the time on my walks, and just threw myself into personal development, which led me to getting certified as a life coach. And then that was in 2007 when I decided to change my life, and here we are all these years later.
Tami Simon: It’s interesting how many people’s origin story takes them back either to the floor or the bathroom floor.
Andrea Owen: [LAUGHS] Mine was the bedroom.
Tami Simon: Right, the bedroom floor. Now, I do have another question for you, because I read that you have a tattoo on your foot that says, “To thine known self be true,” and that was to honor your commitment to sobriety. And I was curious how sobriety fits in, in this timeline.
Andrea Owen: So, I decided to get sober in 2011. I was a few years into my journey, and I had officially launched my online coaching practice in 2010, and it was called “Your Kick-Ass Life.” And I was very excited about it. I’ve always been the sort of consummate cheerleader, the hype girl, if you will. And I had that whisper of, “Well, maybe you’re drinking too much.” Maybe quote unquote “normal” people don’t think about drinking as often as I did.
I had also seen my father get sober at 18, and I was introduced to the term “high-functioning alcoholic.” So I really knew intuitively where my path was headed if I did not choose to abstain from alcohol.
And so to tell you the truth, I sort of went in kicking and screaming. I didn’t want to quit drinking. It was sort of like, I’m like, “Are you kidding me? I can’t have this?” But I did, and it was the best decision I ever made. And what it represents for me is listening to that inner truth and taking action even when it feels terrifying. And the way I looked at it is, both outcomes are vastly uncomfortable. Continuing to drink, which I knew as much as I tried, I could not drink like a quote unquote “healthy” normal person, or if I abstained. And so I made the decision to abstain, and I have 11 years now. Best decision I ever made.
Tami Simon: Wonderful, and congratulations on that, on that decision and sticking with it. Now, I want to ask you what—I don’t know, you might think this is a challenging question. But I feel a connection with you, so I feel safe to ask you this question. Which is, we used to have at Sounds True something that we called the Kick-Ass Award, and I know one of your books is called 52 Ways to Live a Kick-Ass Life. And we gave it to an employee, staff member who did something outstanding that week.
And then we got some feedback from some of the people at the company like, “This word ‘kick-ass’ is not a word that reflects our values of kindness and compassion. I mean, kick-ass, really” And then I thought, “Well, we’ll change it.” And now we call it the Shining Star Award. I’m a bit of a word nerd, so I’m just curious what you think about this phrase “kick-ass,” and do you still like it? Do you not like it as much? Where are you at with that?
Andrea Owen: Yeah. Kriste told me about that, the fantastic producer of my audio. And I totally understand. The short answer of that is for me personally—I think when we live in a word for so long as I have with that branding, it just becomes a little bit old. And for me, it feels a little bit dated—for me. And so that’s why I’m not really all that attached to it anymore.
So I really appreciate and honor anyone who can come forward, and like I just was talking about, speak their own truth, “That is offensive to me.” It doesn’t mean that it needs to be offensive to everyone else. From a practical standpoint, I do think that it’s a bit of a gray area. But again, that’s just my personal opinion. So I don’t know if I really answered the question, but that’s just how I feel about it. I’m not super attached. But again, I honor anyone who feels that way about it, and that is their truth, and period.
Tami Simon: OK. The series that you made with Sounds True with our producer, Kriste Peoples. First of all, fabulous, real workshop immersion. You offer so many different practices to the listener. It’s called Getting Damn Good at Life. And I was curious, I was like, “OK, what does it mean to get damn good at life?” And it was so interesting to me that the core theme you introduced right at the beginning that goes through the whole series is, getting damn good at life involves learning how to manage and work successfully with the voice of the inner critic, with your own inner critic. And I just wanted to start by understanding why that’s such a central idea. I think for a lot of people, it’s part of the work they teach, it’s important, but it’s not as central as it appears to be for you in this notion of getting damn good at life: figure out how to work with your critic.
Andrea Owen: And maybe it’s become central because I tend to work with women and femmes, people who identify as women or at least have grown up in the culture of being a girl or a woman. This doesn’t exclude any other genders; I think we all can have that negative voice in our head, and it can manifest in different ways.
I think the reason that it has become central is because partly, we don’t even realize that it can be in the driver’s seat of our lives. And it can come from many different areas. It can come from culture or your family of origin, and people are differently wired depending if they tend to have more anxiety or depression, or even ADHD and things like that.
But because it’s one of those things that can be insidious, I wanted to make sure from the start that we started from there, and I led with so much compassion. Because you cannot cheerleader your way or manage your mindset—you certainly can’t bully your way through that type of work.
And so I get asked the question many times when I’m being interviewed, if you could have one thing that you give people and want them to work on, and I always say, “That’s like asking which one of my two children is my favorite.” I have two. It’s inner critic work, and it’s understanding and knowing what your values look like. And so those two are absolutely foundational for me, and that’s I think the main reason why I wanted to start there.
Tami Simon: And we’re going to talk about both of these two principles that you bring forward. What’s the connection between the two ideas, knowing what your values are and successful, good inner critic work?
Andrea Owen: Yeah. Well, I think if you are in that place where your inner critic is sort of running the show, whether you know it or not—and I think for most people, it can be an unconscious thing that’s happening. Then it becomes nearly impossible to honor your values. Say you have a value around creativity, and if you are beating yourself up about putting your art out into the world, or even sitting down at your desk and making your art, it can be a major challenge if your inner critic is always in the way telling you, “We don’t have time for that. Your art is terrible anyway. People are going to criticize you. Who do you think you are to even submit this piece of writing or this art to this exhibit?” Or whatever it is.
So that’s just one example of how it can show up in your life. Because at the end of the day, our values are the way that we want to show up in the world, and also that we’re honoring what’s important about the way that we live our life. And to be in that place where your inner critic is always in charge, those are completely incongruent.
Tami Simon: In the section in the series where you talk about your values, you talk about actually writing them down. Taking the time to write them down. And I thought, “Really? I kind of know what my values are. Do I have to write them down?” And then I realized, they’re kind of mushy inside actually, and that writing them down would be really useful. How do you recommend people go about writing them down? Just list five, or do it with your partner—
Andrea Owen: I’m going to stop you because as a coach, I want to know more about that. [LAUGHS] Would you mind sharing? What do you mean by mushy? Say more about that.
Tami Simon: Mushy means I kind of know what they are, but have I actually languaged them? Have I written them down? One, two, three, four. I mean being truthful, knowing our goodness, making a positive contribution. These are all things I come back to as a person, as my core values. But have I really done a thorough, written presentation for myself? No, I haven’t.
Andrea Owen: OK. Well then, I’m going to challenge you to do that. I’ll get permission first, but I would love to know that you actually did it. Yes. So, I’m also certified in the work of Dr. Brené Brown for almost ten years now. And my values work started previous to that with the Coaches Training Institute. And Brené Brown also talks about it too, and I love how she talks about that it’s really not just about naming your values. And one of my previous books, I said, naming your values is like naming your children and calling that parenting. That’s not how it works. You actually have to parent them. And values—yes, of course naming them is the first step. But then what does that actually mean and look like?
So like you said, you have a value around, you said doing good in the world. Is that how you articulate it?
Tami Simon: Making a contribution. Contributing.
Andrea Owen: Making a contribution?
Tami Simon: Yeah.
Andrea Owen: And another person might say, being of service. And I would get curious, what does that actually look like in your life? Because what it might look like to you, Tami, might look very different to me or to someone listening to this.
And so for example, I get a decent amount of people who are in my community who say that they have a value around authenticity. What does that mean? I think there are a lot of buzzwords, too, that we hear in personal development circles, that sound really warm, but might be mushy—like you said, not really sure what that looks like.
And so I ask people, “OK, if authenticity is one of your values, does that mean that what’s important to you is that you are your authentic self?” And they’ll say, “Yes, that sounds really good.” And then I’ll ask, “Well, what do your boundaries look like?” Because many times when we are our authentic self, we need to set some boundaries with people or have difficult conversations. And that’s where the real work comes in. Because many times when we are honoring our values, we have to do uncomfortable things to actually honor them.
Tami Simon: So in this process of not just naming my children, my values, not just giving them a name, I’m going to talk about making it operational in a certain way. Like applying it and what that actually looks like. Do you recommend—how many? Because I could go on and on. What do you think?
Andrea Owen: Sure. So someone who is feeling really stuck, you can go to Google and come [up with]—”list of values.” I think Steve Pavlina was one of the very first hits for a long time on Google. I’m sure if you looked up, Brené Brown has one too. And it can be a little overwhelming at first. But I suggest print it out, circle every one that you feel is important to you, do not hold back. And then from there, you can narrow it down maybe to your top, I would say 15.
And from there, what I like to do is to ask people from that list of maybe 15, narrow it down to three to five at the most. It doesn’t mean that those other ones don’t matter and that they need to be completely taken off your list. But just for the sake of the exercise, the top three to five that will help you light the way when you-know-what hits the fan, when your life gets maybe turned upside down. We also like to say, what can light your way in the dark?
So creativity might be one of your top values that’s important to you. But when things get hard, is creativity the thing that you’re going to lean on? Probably not in that moment. So for me, it’s going to be trust is one of my values. Partly because I’ve had some trust issues. I know you’re surprised considering my past with my relationships [LAUGHS]. But that’s also trust in myself. Do I trust my own intuition that I can have the resilience it’s going to take to get through this?
For many people, it’s faith or spirituality that is going to light their way in the dark. And that’s where I like to start with people so that they can really—it helps them see like, this is when I’m really going to need it, during these dark times.
Tami Simon: So make it real for me how trust lights your way. Because I think sometimes when you hear it, like I circle these words on a page. And it all feels still a little bit at an arm’s length. I don’t quite know how else to put it. And I like what you’re saying. This is what you’re going to use. This is what you can rely on. So share with me from your own experience how that works. Maybe a difficult experience and you say, “OK. I remember. Trust.”
Andrea Owen: So I’ll give you a personal example. My father got sick in 2016. Gravely sick. And I am living in North Carolina now, and I grew up in San Diego. And that’s where he was at the time, where I was born and raised. And I went out to see him and he was not well, and we knew that he was on his last few weeks. And so I flew back home to North Carolina, and then I got a call from hospice and they said, “You had told us that you wanted us to call you when it’s his last handful of days, and we wanted to tell you.”
And I considered not going back home to be with him while he passed away. My stepmother was there, and I felt like I got to say everything to him that I wanted to say. And I really went back and forth with going back. And what I realized was that I did not trust myself enough that I could walk towards that kind of pain and that kind of grief. And that I also intuitively knew that if I didn’t go out to be with him while he died, that I would regret it.
So for me was, it was knowing that I have a history of being afraid of, for lack of a better expression, opening up Pandora’s box. I thought if I did that, I’m never going to stop crying. This is my dad. Also, I’d never lost anyone in my life before. I’ve never held anyone’s hand while they died. So this was going to be a highly emotional, difficult time for me to walk through. And I didn’t trust myself enough that I could make it through. And that’s the thing I had to admit.
And so for me to honor my value, it was a matter of trusting myself, that I am resilient enough, that my truest self shows my love by walking towards the pain instead of running away from it. Because that was my history: something’s too hard, I’m just going to back out and run. And it’s a family pattern of mine. So it was a matter of trusting that I was strong enough to break these family patterns, to be there with my father when he passed away.
And I did it. It was messy on my end. It wasn’t perfect. I would like to tell you it was this beautiful ceremonial thing. It was a lot of, little bit of panic on my end at times, but I did it. And it was a way of honoring both my father during his transition, as well as my own values.
Tami Simon: Now, do you recommend to people that they put a list up somewhere? I don’t have post-it notes all over my house—
Andrea Owen: Oh my gosh, you should see mine.
Tami Simon: I don’t. So I’ve never really done that, but maybe I should start. But anyway, I’m curious what you recommend here.
Andrea Owen: I recommend if you’re a post-it person, then knock yourself out. If you’re not, then it probably won’t work. But I recommend doing the values work fairly regularly. Some people do it every year as a ceremony on New Year’s, or their birthday, or the onset of spring, or whatever it is. I like to do mine just randomly every few years. It’s usually when I’m talking about it, if I’m creating the audio for Sounds True, or maybe on my 50th birthday in a couple of years.
And it’s interesting what comes up because what I have found for people is that our values may very well change depending on the season of our life. What was important to me when I was in college was not the same when I was a brand-new mom. And it’s not the same now as I’m definitely smack in midlife.
And also, it also depends on what’s happening culturally. Maybe what happened during the #MeToo movement, or the pandemic, or politically has changed how you view things, and it’s changed what is important to you in your heart and in your soul. So I recommend just doing it regularly. And again, if you’re a post-it person, go to Staples and stock up on some office supplies.
Tami Simon: Now Andrea, I want to say I’m really enjoying talking with you, and I feel comfortable enough to share with you some things that I might not share otherwise. Which is why I know you’re a damn good coach. Damn good coach.
Andrea Owen: [LAUGHS] I’m honored.
Tami Simon: One of the things that I’ve thought is the coaching profession, this is the thing that—it’s odd that some people are really good at it, and other people I’m like, “Wow, really? This person, they just hung up this thing. They said they were a coach. There’s not a whole lot of scrutiny.” This is probably true with every profession, but for whatever reason, I kind of go off on it inside myself when it comes to coaching. Because I think, “God, I wish people would actually be trained in psychology,” or something like that. My judgments come up. But here I am, I’m talking to someone who’s a damn good coach. So I wonder what you think about it as a profession.
Andrea Owen: I’m with you, honestly. It is one of those unregulated professions, but then if you even look at the industry of therapy where they have to do many, many clinical hours and be certified within their state, and there’s much more regulations put on it. I’ve had some really bad therapists. I’ve had a lot of fantastic ones, but I’ve had one or two where I’m like, “You should not be doing this,” or, “You need more training.”
But for people listening who are considering hiring one, just throwing it out there, definitely do your due diligence, get referrals if you can. Have a thorough consultation with a person. Find out what their policies are, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I think that one of the things that has helped me—I have big applause to the Coaches Training Institute, my alma mater. I think they’re a fantastic organization and train their coaches very, very well, and certify their coaches well.
The skill I think that has helped me so much is curiosity, is just genuinely being curious about other people’s minds and their spirits. And one of my favorite things that the Coaches Training Institute teaches us right from the very beginning is they tell us, every single individual that you work with is naturally creative, resourceful, and whole, all on their own. And I think that’s such a beautiful thing to say about humans, and it’s also a beautiful thing to remind us to other humans.
I think in many ways, we are acknowledgement starved. I know I’m kind of going off on a side tangent here, but it’s amazing to me anytime I acknowledge someone or champion them, their face. Sometimes they’re very uncomfortable. Sometimes they just crumble and you can see that no one has told them in a long time how beautiful and naturally creative, resourceful, and whole they really are.
And I think so much of my coaching is about seeing that person and hearing them for what is going on in their life. Whether it is something that’s more of a surface-level topic, like wanting to change their careers because they’re tired of it, or someone who is hurting in a marriage that they want to leave so badly, and they haven’t told a single soul yet, and I’m the first person that they tell. It’s just like seeing people’s humanity, I think, and getting very curious about it.
Tami Simon: What I realize is that airing out my judgment has helped me release it. And I think this is one of the things in the series that you recorded, Getting Damn Good at Life. In some subtle ways, you help the listeners see where their judgmentalness might actually be an obstacle or creating more harm for them than it’s creating intelligence in the world.
And one of the things you have us look at is this notion, is everyone really doing the best they can? And I wanted to talk to you about that, because somebody once said to me, “I’ve really come to the conclusion everyone’s doing the best they can.” And because of this tendency I have to be a judgmental person, I said, “That’s just not true!” And I talked about this person, and how they need to do a better job, and this person I work with, and how they could do a better job for sure, and blah. And I went on and on.
But I’ve thought about that conversation many times afterwards, and I thought to myself, “Wow, this is really something, Tami, you need to look at. This is about you. This isn’t about other people.” So I’m curious, how did you come to this confidence, if you will, that everyone’s doing the best they can? And how does that change your view of people?
Andrea Owen: Yeah. I mean, I don’t know and you don’t know if everyone is actually doing the best that they can. There’s no way for us to know that. And so the reason I love this notion so much is that—and I’ll talk from an “I” perspective, just to make it a little bit easier to understand. When I believe that everyone is doing the best they can, it is better for me. Because that way, I can have more compassion for them.
So I remember sitting in a 12-Step meeting when I was probably in my first year of sobriety. And there was a woman sitting there who —and my kids were younger at the time. So I’ve been sober for 11 years, and they are 13 and 15 now. So they were quite young, my two kids.
And there was another woman there who had several children, and she had lost custody of them through her alcoholism and her addiction. And she was actively working through the court system to getting custody back. And I remember sitting there and judging her and thinking, “How on earth could you let it get so bad to where you lose custody of your children?”
And using that example and accepting that she was doing her best at that time—if she could do better, she would have. And she could not. And it allows me to see her in her humanity. That she is a human being doing her best, struggling as we all are. Her struggle just looked different than mine. And to have immense amount of compassion for her.
Because at the end of the day, PS, a lot of my judgment was my own fear that that could happen to me. I am just one bad bender away from that happening to me as well. And I think sometimes that’s the case. Not always, but sometimes that very much is the case is when we judge someone else, there’s a part of us, probably unconscious, that’s terrified that we could end up there.
Tami Simon: All right. So I’m talking to a damn good coach. And you said you do a lot of interviews, and people ask you, “If you could only give us one thing,” and you give two—knowing your values and knowing how to work with our inner critic. So let’s talk about knowing how to work with our inner critic.
One of the things you say in the series is that it doesn’t work to bully the bully. And I thought, that’s really interesting. I think sometimes when we encounter that part of ourselves, we’ll say something dramatic. “I’m going to behead you,” or, “I’m going to—” whatever. And tell me, does that really just not work in your experience?
Andrea Owen: I think it can feel great in the moment. We can liken it to, if we get into an argument— well, I’m going to go ahead and assume that everyone listening to this [LAUGHS] has tried their best to have good arguing skills where we don’t fight fire with fire. But I think the vast majority of us have been in that place where we throw daggers back at someone who has thrown daggers at us. No matter who started it, no matter who the person is, we have done that. And in the moment, it can feel good—especially if we’ve been shamed by someone, to throw something back in their face.
None of us, though, are cruel people. This goes back to your values. I’m going to also assume that everyone listening to this, one of their top ten values is either the word kindness or compassion. Showing other people grace, that kind of way of living.
And so our inner critic is a part of us. I’m not a certified parts person. It’s called Family Systems work, where there’s these different parts of ourselves. All of us have a part of ourself who is afraid. And that’s many times our inner critic, this voice that tells us, “Maybe you shouldn’t go for that new job. Maybe you shouldn’t ask that person out. Maybe you shouldn’t put your art out into the world. Maybe you shouldn’t ask for a raise in this economy.” And so it’s just scared. It’s just terrified and wants to keep us safe.
And so if you can look at it from that perspective of just this part of you that wants to keep you safe, that really is trying its best to not rock the boat and create any risk, emotional risk in our life. Then, would you throw a dagger at that person? Even regardless of what their intention was. No.
And so that’s a long way of me saying that no one beats themselves up into betterment. No one beats themselves up into eating healthier. It can go in really any direction. And take it from someone who has a fiery personality. I am all for getting the angry, fiery torch out to go to a protest. But at the end of the day, it is kindness and grace and compassion for all the parts of yourself that is going to get you to that place of betterment.
Tami Simon: One of the things you say in the series is we have to name it to tame it. And what I’d like to hear more about here is the taming it part. I think a lot of people, they know how to name their inner critic. I can describe the voice, I can describe the kind of being. Sometimes it appears, or what comes with that voice. I can tell you all about it. What I don’t know is the taming part.
Andrea Owen: Yeah, it’s consistency. And I talk about this briefly in the audio about—I want to preface this with saying many times—I would say all of the time, if I may—it is like learning a new language. And you’re essentially creating new neural pathways in your brain. And you have to be consistent, and work, and work, and work on the taming part. Again, it’s like learning a new language.
And so what it actually looks like is, for example—I’ll give you a personal example. Years ago, I found myself on Facebook, as one does, scrolling through. And I see another self-help person, and she was posting about how she was going to London to go speak. And my speaking career hadn’t even started yet. I had two little kids at the time. I hadn’t even ventured off in that part of the industry. And I quickly made up a story how she would just jet-set all over Europe, and how great and glamorous her life must be. And then I started making up how my life will never be like that, and I’m never going to be able to have these kind of opportunities. All the way to—I was practically destitute by the end of this internal story I was coming up with.
And so in that moment, I realized fairly quickly that I was doing it. Again, because I try to be as consistent as possible in this work. And what I do—and I’m not sure if we’re we’re getting to this or if I’m jumping ahead—I encourage people to have a very neutral mantra. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a positive affirmation. And it’s certainly not a negative one like we just talked about. I use the one, “Well, that just happened.” That’s what I say to myself, “Well, that just happened.” So I’m acknowledging that I was making up stories and thus beating myself up. And I just say this neutral thing. If I can, I say it out loud to myself. And it’s interrupting that pattern. It’s interrupting that thought pattern right in its tracks. That’s the taming.
And what I hear sometimes when I give this exercise, if I’m doing it in a workshop or in a group program, people will say, “OK, I had an inner critic attack and I said my mantra. And then two hours later, my inner critic was back talking to me.” And I was like, of course! You have to practice the language. You don’t take one Spanish class and then you’re fluent, going to a Mexican restaurant and ordering for everyone at the table. You have to keep doing it over and over again. So that’s sort of a clip of what the taming process looks like.
Tami Simon: When you say, “Well, that just happened,” or some other kind of neutral phrase. I don’t know. Maybe give me some other examples that people could try.
Andrea Owen: Some people say the word stop. And especially if you’re a more visual person, they like to imagine a red hexagon stop sign in their mind. That is incredibly helpful for them. Some people say, “Thank you for sharing.” [LAUGHS] So it’s like they’re acknowledging like, “Oh, OK, you’re here again. Thank you for sharing that noise. I appreciate it. But not today.” “Not today” is another one. I’m trying to think of some other ones. So stop, not today, thank you for sharing. “I heard you. I hear you. And I’m going to go in a different direction.” That’s another example.
Tami Simon: So I think that’s all really helpful, a helpful what to do on the spot. How do you help people understand what the inner critic is trying to do to keep you safe? That kind of archeological process, if you will. To really understand, it keeps coming back for a reason. It has this job it’s trying to accomplish.
Andrea Owen: Yeah. I think anytime we dig in—I should say many times what it comes down to is our inner critic is trying to help us avoid any kind of exposure. It’s trying to help us avoid any kind of emotional risk. And it’s trying to avoid us any risk of shame as well. Because at the end of the day, shame is the thing that—especially many, many, many years ago—that could ostracize us from a community or a tribe that we were in. And it could mean death. It’s very understandable that this very subconscious part of our brain is wanting us to avoid that. Of course it is.
But we have evolved to a point where that’s not necessarily the case. And, we have also evolved where we do have resilience and are able to bounce back from things. But I just want to say it’s understandable that our inner critic thinks these things. So usually, it’s a very short line to avoiding failure, criticism, judgment, which could lead to shame. And that’s what it is that we’re trying to avoid.
Tami Simon: And share with me a bit about your own journey with that. And I’m going to give you an example. I’m just going to try to make this really real. In our conversation, I’ve been thinking, “Why did I ask Andrea about the word ‘kick-ass’? Why did I do that? Why did I share my judgment about coaches? Why am I doing that? Why am I exposing myself like this? Couldn’t I just ask her questions without exposing all of these things about me? Jesus, come on.” And obviously, this is this fear of exposure, and I understand that.
And I’m just curious. Here you are, and you have come to a place where you are putting yourself out again, and again, and again, and again, exposing yourself. And I want to understand more about that capacity to handle what could be coming back at you, whatever kind of criticism, and how you work with that.
Andrea Owen: I’m so glad you asked this question, and thank you for being so honest and vulnerable. So there’s a couple of things that I want to make sure that I mention. So I’m going to jot them down right here to make sure that I don’t forget.
So the first part, to answer the last part of your question, “How do I keep putting myself out over and over again?” Part of that, to be honest with you, I believe is how I am wired. I am someone who was born with little to no risk aversion. My mom says, “Andrea likes to run around corners with her arms wide open and her eyes closed.” Which is great for entrepreneurship, bad for drugs, alcohol, and relationships. [LAUGHS] I just am a high risk-taker where I learn my lessons retrospectively instead of prospectively.
So that being said, it brings me to something that I go in-depth in the audio, but I want to give you a taste of it here. Because you mentioned that you were telling yourself, “Why did I ask that question?” You’re having your own judgments about your questions.
So this points to one of my favorite lessons around what we call our unwanted identities, which are our triggers, as well as our ideal identities. So if I can explain this, I’m going to break it down into smaller pieces because we all have them, and if you break it down to different areas of your life into these niches, it’s easier to explain. So for the sake of this conversation, let’s talk about how we show up professionally. More specifically, how we even show up to these kinds of recorded conversations.
So I have an ideal identity. By ideal identity, I mean, how do you want to be perceived by other people? Because it has nothing to do with how you perceive yourself. I want to be perceived by you, a pioneer in this industry, someone who has created something so massive and successful, that has helped so many people—I want to be perceived by you as someone who’s experienced, who’s successful, who’s well-spoken, who’s articulate, who is wise. And I have no control over that. I have very, very little if no control over how you perceive me. And you probably have similar ways of how you want to be perceived. Not only by me, but of your listeners. All of these people who listen to the show. You’ve built this amazing reputation.
So we have those ways that we want to be perceived. And direct opposite of that is how we would never want to be perceived. I don’t want to be perceived as inexperienced, shallow. I’ve been told by one person, but I make up that everyone thinks this, that I talk like a Kardashian. I’m using quotes. Because I’m from Southern California! [LAUGHS] It’s an accent that we have. And I’ve had people make fun of the way that I talk, because I’m very enthusiastic and I have a lot of energy. So I don’t want to be perceived as someone who is just uneducated. We have all of these.
So what ends up happening is inevitably, we will fall into one of these unwanted identities. A, because we don’t have control over how people see us. And B, because sometimes we make mistakes. We do. Sometimes, I ask the wrong questions during interviews. I’m not at all saying that you did! I’m glad you asked the questions that you did. But what ends up happening, and the point to my whole explaining this is that when we fall into one of those unwanted identities, this is oftentimes where people-pleasing, and poor boundaries, and perfectionism are born. Because we tried harder to get to our ideal identities.
If I fear or I have fallen into one of my unwanted identities where I start stumbling all over my words, or if I showed up late on accident, or I couldn’t get my tech right, then I might go overboard trying to do this little dog-and-pony show for you, or send you a gift afterwards. Kind of brown-nose my way through, when that’s not really authentically necessary, or who I am.
And so that’s sort of a long way of saying just how important it is to know. And in the audio, I give people a breakdown of how to do this. And I give many examples of different areas of your life, because it shows up in our relationships, with our colleagues, if we are parents—all different areas. And so I think it’s important for us to know what they are. Because whether or not we know them, they are running the show all the time.
Tami Simon: Now you mentioned how you as a person would run around the corner with your arms wide open, and your eyes closed, that you’re [not] risk averse. And one of the things you talk about and you help people is to develop what you call unshakeable confidence.
And one of the things that I thought was interesting that you shared in this teaching series is that it’s possible to be brave and afraid at the same time. And I thought, “Well, that makes a lot of sense to me.” When I hear something like unshakeable confidence, I think, “Hmm.” But when I hear you’re brave, and afraid, and you’re moving forward with the type of unshakeable confidence anyway, that I get. So help people understand how they relate to their own fear, to bring in the bravery at the same time. And what do you mean by unshakeable confidence anyway?
Andrea Owen: Yeah. I’ll start with that one. What I mean by unshakeable confidence is that my hope is that you get to a point where you cannot be shaken down. Yes, you will shake. I go up on stage to speak in front of thousands of people, you bet your butt, I’m shaking. [LAUGHS] At least the first five or ten minutes, I am. I was at a conference recently, and there was a lot of peopling that I had to do. Even as an extrovert, I still get nervous meeting new people many times.
And so you asked the question, how do I help people relate with their fear? One of the ways that I do it and that I’ve been doing it since 2008, back when blogging was still a thing, is I talk about my fears all the time. I have been one of those people who has built a business being, what my mother would say, a little too transparent [LAUGHS] about what’s going on in my life.
Of course, some things are private. But for the most part, I talk about my fears and my shortcomings. And I think what it has allowed people to do—and I did this with no strategy, it was completely by accident—was helped people understand that they can be a continuous work in progress like me. That all of us have fears, and doubts, and unwanted identities, and times that we are triggered, and times that our inner critic comes in. And at the same time, we can walk along with those and be brave at the same time.
And sometimes, we pause along that path, and we question our own courage, and we question our own bravery, and we question our own resilience. And we just take a moment to pause and breathe, and look around and realize this is what makes us human, and what Kristin Neff calls common humanity. And we can keep walking with each other.
So it’s not about ever, did I want to be put on a pedestal, or be thought of in this regard where I have it all together. Because I certainly don’t. I might be farther along or on a different spot on the path as other people, but I think that is a thing that has helped me guide people to look at their own fear, and understand that it is part of the human experience.
Tami Simon: And this combination of being brave and afraid at the same time?
Andrea Owen: Every single moment. I mean, there’s part of me that’s even nervous to get on this call with you, because you’re someone that I’ve looked up to for so long. I think that if I can offer a piece of wisdom in that question, it’s knowing that when you act in that place of being brave and afraid at the same time, that is the trajectory that’s going to get you to that place of unshakeable confidence. Because I think many times, we think that confidence is something that we get, and then we do the thing that we want to go after. Confidence is something we cultivate by finally reading that self-help book that we bought that’s been sitting on the shelf, or going to that seminar, or the webinar, or whatever it is.
And I think all of those things can be enormously helpful. What I have found through my own experience, and actually reading all those books, going to all the webinars, is that you gain confidence by doing the thing that you’re afraid to do, by being brave and afraid at the same time. And a lot of it is mastery and competence, being good at the thing. But also, what I have found is that confidence is built by doing the thing and also—going back to that conversation around trust—is trusting that you will be resilient if and when you fail. Because you will. You will. I do all the time.
And sometimes, the net does not appear and we fall on our face. But it’s knowing that you will learn lessons from it. You will get up and brush yourself off. My hope is that you have people that surround you who can help you get back up and pick up the pieces. And that’s what builds not only the resilience, but the confidence on the other end.
Tami Simon: OK. I need to ask you just two more questions about the inner critic. And one is for that person who’s listening who says, “I don’t know if Andrea knows how strong and fierce and consistent the voice of my inner critic is. Visualizing a stop sign, or saying ‘this happened,’ and understanding that I want to be perceived a certain way—none of this is working. You don’t know how strong this is in me.” What would you say to that person?
Andrea Owen: I would first say, I totally understand. I believe you. I believe you. I’m a huge fan of Kristin Neff’s work around self-compassion, and the steps that she has, and the research that she has done around it. So if the person who is thinking that, who’s listening to this, definitely go check out her work. I think that you have programs of hers.
But also, I have a deep, deep reverence for therapy, and especially somatic therapy. I think that many times, our inner critic lies so much beneath the surface that comes down to sometimes childhood trauma or even ancestral trauma that we don’t even know about. And I found years of talk therapy helpful, but then got to a place where I thought, “OK, talk therapy has been helpful, and I feel like there’s something more.” What I do know is that trauma lives deep in our bodies, and that somatic work can be incredibly helpful. And for those that don’t know what that is, it’s when you incorporate integrating into your body to actually do the trauma therapy.
And I have just found that at the end of the day, I would say all of us—except people who struggle with severe mental illness who don’t have the capacity for human connection—all of us struggle with feelings of being unworthy. And most of the time, that’s where our inner critic stems from. How mine looks—and I say this because it might be helpful to people is—because when I would hear people say, “I struggle with unworthiness and not feeling worthy.” And I would think, “No, I feel like I’m worthy. But I feel like one day I’m going to wake up and I’m going to realize—and people are going to tell me and be honest with me and I’m going to understand, you know what? People don’t actually really care about you all that much, Andrea. They might say that they do, but no one really cares all that much.”
Which is the same thing basically, as feeling unworthy. It just sort of sounds a little bit different, and to me is a slightly different variation of that same thing. And once I realized that, this deep fear of abandonment, this deep fear of people just—that one day, the gig’s going to be up—that helped me so much, to be able to untangle that in therapy. So hopefully that’s helpful for someone listening, who might relate in that. I guess the bottom line of it is that if you are feeling that way as you described, Tami, that trauma therapy can be an incredible resource.
Tami Simon: And another question for you about this, which is your work focuses on high-achieving women. That’s the primary focus of your coaching work. Have you found that high-achieving women have a louder and stronger inner critic voice than others? Or is this just we all have this, and high-achieving women are just prepared to talk about it, but we all have this?
Andrea Owen: I do think we all have it. And I think that Brené’s work talks about how the inner critic and the feelings of unworthiness are universal, but they are gender-specific. Looks a little bit different within the genders.
And for women, because that’s been my primary focus over the last decade and a half, what I see how it comes out is that they grow up understanding the messaging that was either explicitly or implicitly given to them as they grew up that their primary job was to put everyone else before them, and that everyone else’s comfort and needs were more important than their own. Never to rock the boat, never to color outside of the lines, or make a scene. Do not make people uncomfortable, do not be difficult.
And they grow up also overachieving. And that might look different; it might be that this person excelled in school to the point of burnout. It might be that they grew up and decided to get married and have children and they overcompensate as mothers, or they climb the corporate ladder. It looks kind of like those are the main things that I see over and over again.
And they get to a point where it feels like the dampening of the soul, where they start to wake up and think, “Is this all there is? This isn’t what I signed up for.” And for many of them, anger boils underneath the surface. So they do more, and do more, and do more. And they people please, they have poor boundaries, perfectionism. A lot of them are numbing out with alcohol or some other process, addiction, and many of them isolate as well.
So going off on a tangent here, describing what this looks like, in hopes that someone’s listening and sees themself. And just understanding that especially in the US, where we live in a capitalistic culture that tells us that our worth is wrapped up in how productive we are—and many times for women, it’s also wrapped up in our appearance and the way that our bodies look—that catches up. It catches up. And that’s usually when I am there, to be the person who can, at the very least, be the person that these women can relate to, and hopefully start to help them unpack some of that.
Tami Simon: OK. I just have a final question for you. I think I’m going to call this episode “Speaking with a Damn Good Coach.”
Andrea Owen: I agree with that. [LAUGHS]
Tami Simon: And what I’m interested in knowing is when you’re listening to someone—maybe you’re meeting someone for the first time as a client. What are you listening for? If you were to go inside and say, “These are the kinds of moments where I go, ‘I’m going to pull that out. I’m going to pull—’” What are you listening for?
Andrea Owen: A couple of things. The more and more I’ve been doing this—because I used to do this only on the phone, and as the years have gone by, we had Skype for a while, and now it’s Zoom, and I love being able to see the person that I’m talking to. And sometimes, not every time, I feel some kind of presence that comes into the room with me. It always comes and sits here right around over my right shoulder. And sometimes, this presence points things out, and sometimes it’s not there at all but I still have intuitive hits about people. So I listen either to whatever this presence is or my intuitive hits.
But I also listen—I read between the lines. I watch their body language. When they’re telling me something and they’re hunched over, they might get emotional telling me something, or their hair is in their face, or they’re covering their heart, or their throat, or their mouth with—and their face, and not even realizing that they’re doing it. And also, they might shift and I might ask them a different question, and their shoulders back up, and they smile about something. And the next breath, whatever it is that they’re telling me that’s making them smile, they’ll say, “But that’s totally impractical and I could never do that,” when they just got finished telling me how much they miss riding horses or something like that.
So a lot of it is these nonverbal cues that I watch for and listen for. And I just am genuinely curious for more information. And it’s not that I’m interested in the story. One of my favorite questions is, “What’s important about that?” If they tell me that they want to—I’ll keep it simple. If they’ve been on the fence about leaving their relationship, and I’ll ask them, “What’s important about making this decision?”
So it doesn’t really have anything to do with the story. I don’t care about what their partner did or didn’t do. What I care about is what’s important to the person I’m talking to, for them. That’s one of the beautiful things about being trained as a coach, is that they teach us to ask questions that the client probably isn’t asked ever. Unless they have a therapist, because therapists are trained similarly. But that’s really what I’m listening for, is just honestly my own intuition.
Tami Simon: Tell me about that presence. What is that? What do you think that is?
Andrea Owen: I don’t know, Tami. [LAUGHS]
Tami Simon: How do you experience it?
Andrea Owen: So as a child, I would hear—I hate saying it like this because it makes it sound like I’m not well. I would hear voices, and it was just one. And it’s not as if someone’s calling me from the other room, and it also doesn’t sound like a thought in my own mind. It’s a voice, and it is genderless. And I used to hear it a lot more as a child. And I told my mom about it many years ago. And she, without even flinching, said, “Oh, that’s God.” And I grew up in a Christian household. And it was just like, OK. But as I grew older, I hear it less and less. Which I hear is common for people who have different, one of the clairs—clairaudient, clairvoyant, all of those.
And I was working with a spiritual mentor, and she very matter-of-factly was like, “You’re clairaudient. You’re hearing probably your guides and angels.” So I’ve been trying more and more to tap into that, and meditate, and just ask to open up the portal.
I’ve seen psychics who have said, as soon as I walk into the room, they’re like, “They came with you.” So I’m just trying to be open to what it might be. And I definitely could be more of a person who has a regular meditation practice, and I’m sure it would be stronger. But I don’t know. If you have any insight, I’m happy to hear it, what you think it is.
Tami Simon: No, but I will ask a question. Does that intelligent presence have anything it wants to say here at the end of our conversation to the Sounds True audience?
Andrea Owen: Yeah. I think—the first thing that came to me is that every single soul that’s listening to this has such beauty inside of them that if they were able to see it and hold it in their hearts, it would absolutely bring them to their knees. And my hope—Andrea—is that they can get to a point where they can tap into that and see it. And it is such a beautiful light that I think if even people could tap into just the tiniest part of it, the whole world would shine a little brighter.
Tami Simon: That’s gorgeous! I’ve been talking with Andrea Owen. She’s the author of the books Make Some Noise, How to Stop Feeling Like Sh*t, 52 Ways To Live—I’m going to say it—a Kick-Ass Life. And with Sounds True, she’s created a new audio immersion experience. It’s a true workshop. It’s a companion that you work with as Andrea guides you through a whole series of different contemplations, reflections, writing exercises, inner visualizations. It’s called Getting Damn Good at Life: Strategies for Managing Your Inner Critic, Growing Confidence, and Experiencing More Happiness Now. I’ve loved talking with you, Andrea. Thank you.
Andrea Owen: Thank you so much. If I could just say one more quick thing, I just wanted to express my deepest gratitude for those people listening. I know how important people’s time is. It’s a non-renewable resource, and I just am so grateful that people have chose to spend it with you and me today, Tami. So thank you, everyone.
Tami Simon: And if you’d like to watch Insights at the Edge on video and participate in after the show Q&A conversations with featured presenters, and have the chance to ask your questions, come join us on Sounds True One, a new membership community that features premium shows, live classes, and community events. Let’s learn and grow together. Come join us at join.soundstrue.com. Sounds True: waking up the world.
