Evolving While Black: Happy, Authentic, and Free
UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT: The following transcript may contain typographical errors or other mistakes due to inconsistencies in audio quality, background noise, or other factors. We cannot guarantee its precision or completeness. We encourage you to use this as a supplement to your own notes and recollection of the session.
Tami Simon: Hello, friends, my name’s Tami Simon, and I’m the founder of Sounds True. I want to welcome you to the Sounds True podcast: Insights at the Edge. I also want to take a moment to introduce you to Sounds True’s new membership community and digital platform. It’s called Sounds True One. Sounds True One features original, premium transformational docuseries, community events, classes to start your day and relax in the evening, special weekly live shows including a video version of Insights at the Edge with an after-show community question-and-answer session with featured guests. I hope you’ll come join us, explore, come have fun with us, and connect with others. You can learn more at join.soundstrue.com.
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In this episode of Insights at the Edge, My guest is Chianti Lomax. Let me tell you a little bit about Chianti. She is a leadership strategist and a certified executive coach and workplace mindfulness facilitator. She is a positive psychology practitioner and she’s poured all of her coaching methodologies and her learnings into a new book and audio book with Sounds True. It’s called Evolving While Black: The Ultimate Guide to Happiness and Transformation on Your Own Terms. Chianti, welcome.
Chianti Lomax: Hi, Tami. Thanks for having me.
TS: Yeah, wonderful to have this chance to talk with you. To begin and as a way for our listeners to get to know you a little bit, tell us a little bit about your upbringing and early life and the journey you made to land in a class on positive psychology.
CL: Sure. So I am originally from Greenville, South Carolina, and if you’re from South Carolina, we say Greenville, South Carolina. I grew up with just my mom and my siblings and I tell people come from very humble beginnings and I grew up in an environment that most people wouldn’t see as conducive to just a healthy child and a well emotionally regulated child because there was a lot of just things that weren’t, it wasn’t always a safe space is what I’ll say. And I grew up in a rough neighborhood and at the early age I realized that I wanted to experience something different from my life. I always felt like there was something else. I didn’t know what it was, I didn’t see it, but I said there has to be something different for me. And then I had a mother who would tell us, education is the way, we don’t have the money, but we do have our minds and that’s going to be your golden ticket out of here.
So I went to college, went to the College of Charleston, and then I had one goal that was to get out of South Carolina. I wanted to see some different, right. And so I moved after college, I got a job with a tech company that moved me to the DC area and one of my roles was to be an organizational change consultant. So to help organizations, their people, their culture in tech just moved them through some type of transformation. And the thing I fell in love with was helping the people through change. So my specialty was adult learning and helping the professionals of the organization move through change and I just fell in love with it and I realized that the process of awareness and adopting and then being advocates of the change was something that didn’t have to just be applied to organization, it could be applied to somebody’s life.
And I was like, this is some cool stuff. I think that people as individuals could benefit from it. Then I found myself and a coaching program and I was like, I want to help women specifically through change. And so the coaching program was rooted in positive psychology, the study of what allows us to flourish. And after that coaching program I was like, I am so nerdy and hungry for more information about this science of what allows us to thrive, that I went into an applied positive psychology program and sitting in that program I remember just ending every day full of tears. This stuff is so powerful and people who look like me could really benefit from it, especially from my similar background. And when I would look around the classroom, I was the only brown face in the room and I’m like, man, I just want to share it with my community. I wanted to take it back. And so after that I decided I wanted to take positive psychology to the world, especially people who look like me and make it accessible, fun and relevant to our specific experience.
TS: One of the phrases that you have on your website is exposure creates expansion. And that was inspiring to me. And I thought of really in some ways even this whole podcast Insights at the Edge and what sounds true as a whole is about and has been about for four decades is exposing people to ideas but also to messengers and your whole notion that people need to see and feel people who are like them to inspire them. And I wonder if you could share more about what exposure in your life created expansion and what kind of expansion you’re hoping to offer to people.
CL: Yeah, that’s a great question. Even though I grew up in a not so safe environment, one of the things I remember my mom was very intentional about was putting us my siblings and myself in programs. So I was a girl scout. I would do any activity that would be fun and keep me busy after school. And being the Girl Scouts being connected to the Urban League that would take us on college field trips, I was able to see things in people and places that just broaden my horizon. I’m like, oh wait, you mean to tell me there are Black people who have exciting jobs outside of just manual labor or a blue collar work, which is totally fine. I didn’t see it and then go even go further than that When I moved to DC I’m like, oh my gosh, there are so many people, Black and Brown people who are doing amazing work who are impacting the world in so many amazing ways.
And it made me believe that I could do it myself. It created more self-efficacy within me because I’m like, oh my gosh, if they can do it, I can do it. She can do it, I can do it. And that’s kind of why I wrote the book because when I was growing up, my grandparent and parents and I have this conversation with my friends all the time, for us it was always the teachings was about survival. This is how you survive, this is how you survive. And I’m like, what if we got past survival? We got that toolkit. What if we started learning ways to flourish in the face of systemic racism and oppression, and as a woman patriarchy, what would that look like? And positive psychology gave me that answer. It’s like, well, here’s what you could do. Here’s some very practical things that you could do to have more joy in your day, to have more ease, more peace of mind. And the book was, I’m like, well, I know that I get nerdy about the science of it, but I want it to really make it accessible and fun. And so that’s why I wanted it to be in my language, in my accent. You could read it in here in my accent so that people, they would take the medicine, but they would have the sugar on top of it. And
TS: The book is fun, it’s fun to read, and you bring your own authentic and funny and warm and real voice to it. And I also discovered in reading, Evolving While Black, how much you love music. And I know you’ve created an Evolving While Black playlist for people, they can listen to it while they’re reading the book. And one of the things you write, and this is a quote from the book, hip Hop was my first glimpse of what it meant to thrive in a country that wasn’t built for people who looked like me. And I wonder if you can say more about that and how hip hop in its own way was a kind of exposure creates expansion for you.
CL: Yeah, it is so interesting because I’ll just say this because I know listeners might be saying, well, I know certain versions of hip hop that aren’t as positive, but luckily I had a big brother and a mom who liked the more positive empowering versions of hip hop. And so hip hop would have messages in it about owning real estate. Rappers would talk about owning real estate, they would talk about taking their families outside of poverty stricken areas into more safe areas. There would be messaging about allowing your light to shine on the world. There would be messages about having dreams like dreaming big and some of my favorite rappers like Biggie and Common Sense. But they always had these messages that made me feel good inside. And I’m like, man, I am so excited that I am hearing this message of dreaming bigger, doing bigger, of challenging myself, of beating the odds. And all of those messages kind of like I would say, percolated inside and made me just want to take a shot, made me want to take a shot and apply to a school outside of my city, made me want to move to a larger city because that’s where they were from. So it literally changed my mindset. I told people from poverty to possibility and that’s why I’m like that exposure is what triggered a lot of the person who you see here.
TS: And tell me, when you’re in that positive psychology class, and you said that you felt almost like crying or you did cry at the end of different classes, it was so meaningful to you. What were the most important things that you learned that you thought, I’ve been waiting to hear this my whole life, this is what I needed?
CL: Yeah, I think the biggest thing was I always felt like I was different, but one of the biggest aha moments was this idea that the belief systems that I had, that they were given to me because I’m like, I have this set of beliefs, but I don’t necessarily agree with it all. I don’t agree that just because I’m a woman that the point of life of success for me is marriage. I don’t believe that just because I’m Black that I won’t be able to experience abundance. All of these belief systems were given to me. And then this idea that just because these belief systems exist doesn’t mean I have to continue to subscribe to them. I can release myself from beliefs that don’t serve me. And not only that is I know that we learned about happiness and how sometimes you can be, your disposition can be leaned more towards negativity, but you can do small acts every single day, gratitude or journaling that will allow you to spiral up instead of spiral down.
So literally the biggest one was the belief systems. And then using gratitude was another one. I’m just like, oh my gosh, I’ve always learned this thing of counting my blessings in church, but you mean to tell me there’s science that’s backing this idea of gratitude. So things like that just really made me feel more empowered and it made me feel like I could be an active participant in my life versus a bystander or on the passenger seat because when you grow up in certain areas, you believe, oh, I can’t do anything about these things because these people are out to get me, or this system is not built for me. But in that class I’m like, wait a second, there are some things, there are some really real threats to me because of my skin color and also there’s some things that I can do day to day to create my own little pocket of joy. And that really made me emotional.
TS: One of the things Chianti that impressed me when I was reading Evolving While Black is how you’ve taken some of the key principles, positive psychology and made them accessible. I could connect to them in, and I also have some questions about it. And I think one of my questions is something that might be a inception, and that is that somehow the difficulties or the negative emotions that I feel are going to get replaced with positive thoughts or positive thinking. And I think that’s one of the reasons why I’ve always been like there’s a lot of merit here, but also I have some questions. Are we somehow going on the surface and kind of avoiding the root issues by glossing it over with gratitude and positive thinking? So I’m curious if you could share with me your sense of that.
CL: No, what you are saying, Tami, a lot of people when they come to me, they have that one eyebrow raised. So you’re telling me you’re going to be beaming rainbows and sunshines and never going to be sad. And I told people when I started teaching about happiness, happiness, it was the carrot. But when you got inside my coaching bag, we’re going to make sure you’re resilient. We’re going to make sure that you can navigate those negative emotions even better. So a lot of what I teach is that you do not happiness or even learned optimism. It’s not about ignoring the emotions, it’s about recognizing that those emotions exist, negative thinking patterns exist. I’m going to feel all of the emotions that come into my life. However, with certain tools, I can just navigate it better. So maybe I’m not thriving every single day, but I can be at neutral or maybe I can get myself back to neutral with gratitude or with self-compassion.
So it was never really about, I’m trying to be happy every single day. It’s never really about creating the picture perfect life. It’s like how do I use these tools just to make life a little bit more manageable and on my own terms? Because I don’t want to work wake up cheese and grinning all day. Sometimes I just want to be and just be present. And that’s what it’s about. And even when I talk about mindfulness, it’s like mindfulness isn’t about stopping your thoughts or telling your emotions to sit still. It’s literally about being friends with your emotions and just being present and acknowledging them. And that’s what I think for me has helped me to be better or just to be more emotionally regulated and to be emotionally vibrant because I am going to experience anger and I’m also going to experience joy. And this book, it gives people the permission to do both because both can be felt and it’s okay.
TS: You decided to call the book Evolving While Black. Tell me more both about the use of the word evolving and if you can also why you felt it was important to gear it towards the Black person’s experience, specifically your experience. Of course, as you mentioned, we don’t want to put any group of people into any kind of monolithic view where they all have the same experience or believe the same thing, but you felt it was important to frame the book that way. Help me understand why.
CL: Well, I use the word evolving because as we know, the definition is literally just a gradual change. And so personal growth has been a main character in my personal story. And even in my career, like I mentioned earlier, my career, I spent helping people through change. And so giving it the lens of where I come from, I think that it helps people and the readers to connect with me because my hope is that when people read this book that the tools help them to become the most fully expressed versions of themselves. And how can I help someone be that or reach that without showing my most fully expressed version? And so I know that by me talking about my experience of growth through the lens of being a Black woman, that vulnerability will help people to see me as a human and to see themselves even as a human.
And I even tell people that it was important because like I said earlier, a lot of the times we’re so focused, people who look like me in Black and Brown communities are so focused on just surviving. And so I wanted them to say, Hey, you know what? This is for you too. You can focus on personal growth and we don’t have to ignore the very real threats that society has, but you can also take these tools and like I said before, just create your own pocket of healing, your own pocket of joy. But I think that when people read the book, the tools and practices are universal. It doesn’t have a gender, a race. I just think that I wanted to make sure that it came from me because that’s who I am. And so by being who I am, my hope was it could help someone else be who they really wanted to be and create their own version of whatever that freedom looks like.
TS: And there’s lots of great teachings and practices, and we’re going to go into some of them as our conversation unfolds here. But I think the part of the book actually, that landed the most in my heart, that touched me the most were your personal stories. And here’s how you start the book. Black people don’t do stuff like this was the first thought that echoed in my mind as I looked at my Groupon receipt for a tandem skydiving jump. Go ahead and tell us about why you went ahead and did this tandem skydiving jump and what you discovered.
CL: Well, I was at a place in my career. I was working of course in corporate America, and I just felt stuck. I felt like every day was Monday. I felt like it was Groundhogs Day all the time, but something in me was just yearning for something more. I just wanted more for myself. I felt like I had a itch and couldn’t figure out how to just reach it. So it was almost like kismet when I got that email. And that’s when Groupon was really big. I dunno if it’s still big, but it was really big at the time, and it was almost like the universe tapped me on my shoulder and was like, this is what you need. You’ve been stuck in this rut. You want to do more. You want to feel something, so I need you to click on this email. And so I did. I followed my intuition, my gut set click on the email. So I clicked on the email and I was like, who can I take with me? And I took one of my friends who ended up not jumping because she’s like, you’re kind of crazy. I’m not jumping out of plane with you. And that was a teachable moment too, because I learned that just because I’m ready doesn’t mean someone else is ready. So I realized this is my own journey to take and this is my plane to jump out of. And so she
TS: Drove all the way there with you,
CL: All the way with me
TS: As if she was going to do it. Then she bagged out at the last minute. Yeah,
CL: She bought a ticket, she registered, went through the safety procedures with me and everything. She buckled up and said, no, thank you.
TS: I can imagine that for sure.
CL: And I couldn’t be mad. It was like one of those moments, well, this is my journey. This is something you have to do alone. And I was okay with that. And so once I jumped out the plane or I made it to the ground, it was a whole thing. I realized I had been afraid of just changing. I spent my career helping other people through change, but I needed to create my own change. And that change was just looking fear in the face and saying, things are going to be scary. You’re going to want to make different choices. You’re going to have to feel the fear and do it anyway, get really cozy and comfortable with fear because your life is going to be different from this day forward. And so do you
TS: Feel that after you did the jump, and I realize it’s not one of the techniques that you teach people to jump out of planes, absolutely
CL: Not.
TS: But do you feel that it changed you? Did it actually create a new capacity in you having done that?
CL: Yeah, and it goes back to this idea of evolution. I feel like it created a new evolution of Chianti in that moment, a different iteration of me. And that iteration of me was just more bold. I was speaking my own truths in every environment. Even at work, I started taking more risk. I started standing up to family, which is a big thing to do for someone from the south. And I literally, I would tell myself things like, if I can jump out of a plane, I can do insert whatever thing I’m afraid I’ve been afraid of doing for the past X years. So it literally gave me that jolt to be more of a risk taker, I would say, even within my own life.
TS: Now, I mentioned that you take the coaching techniques, what you do with an individual or with an organization and you’ve codified it and put it into Evolving While Black, and you start the very beginning with self-awareness. And what I thought there were a couple of things I thought were very interesting about this opening segment of the book. The first is that you quote a study that even those of us who think we are pretty self-aware if research is actually done, we may discover that we’re not as we think we are. And I wonder if you can share more what the criteria is that people use to even decide how self-aware using this study. What were they looking for that? Oh, these are high marks in self-awareness.
CL: Yeah. Share a little bit about the ways that you could spot low. So some of the things were if you experience conflict and you fly off the handle, and I’m not doing the direct, I’m not quoting the direct words, but if you’re flying off the handle, often in conflict, if you are feeling just, and these are my own words, just like blah, with your daily life, low self-awareness, people who are really, you always think you’re right. Whenever you get feedback in a working environment or in personal relationships, you always think you’re right. That’s a sign of low self-awareness. And I find that a lot of people, and this is my own personal thing with my clients, I noticed that with my clients, even people who are a type personalities who are really used to being in control had low levels of self-awareness. So the whole point in that chapter was just to just let people know that when we take a moment to really get to know ourselves is when we open, just open our minds just for more opportunities of growth. And that’s what was most important from that chapter. It’s like self-awareness is this first step of growth. And if you don’t know who you are, how can you change anything, which is what I was trying to get across in that chapter.
TS: What I thought was interesting too is that you point out how there’s an internal aspect to self-awareness, but also an external aspect, external. So the internal of how we are noticing and what level of recognition we have about our own strengths and weaknesses and feelings and thoughts, but then external awareness of what other people think about us and how sometimes we’re missing that. And I wonder if somebody’s listening right now and they think I want to increase, whether it’s my own internal self-awareness or external awareness of what other people think of me, what you’d recommend, how you’d recommend going about that.
CL: A fan favorite in my coaching program is the external self-awareness activity because a lot of people, we don’t ask our peers and our friends stuff about us because these are the people who spend the most time with us. So I tell people, one of the activities that I do in my coaching programming in the book is to do a poll of your crew. So do a poll of your crew. So ask your friends and family members or people who you spend a lot of time with, just questions about how they perceive you, how are you showing up, how do you respond to things, how you communicate. And you would be so surprised with the feedback that you get. One of the things I do every so often, and I put it as one of the activities or one of the questions is asking people what do they think I’m good at?
And this was specifically helpful for people or clients who were going through career changes and they were like, I just don’t know what to do next. And asking your friends or family members or peers, whoever is close to you, what do you think I’m good at is so enlightening because you literally don’t think about the things that you do on a day-to-day basis as a strength or as a gift. But having people who see you tell you what they see in you is one of the most things that makes my heart smile when people share with me what people have said to them or what they’ve received from what people see in them. And I think that’s a great way to build that external,
TS: But it’s one thing, what are my strengths? But then do you say to your friends, what do you think my growth areas are? Or what would be the right questions, do you think,
CL: Oh, what are my opportunities? So we want to frame it as opportunities so you feel good about asking it and they feel good about telling you it’s all about how you say it. So opportunities is what we say.
TS: Very good. And then you move on in Evolving While Black. And you talk about our happiness level, you call it the life satisfaction pie, and I wonder if you can describe this and the value of using that as a mirror to our current situation.
CL: That was one of, that’s also a fan favorite from my workshops. So I started teaching on it.
TS: I always like to go for the fan favorites.
CL: Yeah, it’s a fan favorite. In 2016 is when I started teaching it in workshops. I even taught it at a church and people were like, oh, mind blown. And you think wouldn’t think at a church it would happen that way. But people, their minds are blown because a lot of people think that their happiness is predicated on just your circumstances. And there’s this life satisfaction pie or happiness pie that comes from the research of Sonya Lube murky. And she says, 50% of your happiness or life satisfaction is derived from genetics. So our parents grandparents. And that was mind blowing to me. And I’m like, well, that’s why I smile all the time. My mom is one of those happy people. So I’m like, I lucked out there. And then 40% is derived from intentional activity, and then only 10% is derived from your circumstance. And of course that’s once basic needs are met.
But this idea that 40% of my happiness is within my control is the superstar of my workshops because people are like, wait, so according to this pie, 10% of my happiness is derived from my circumstance, what’s going on in my life right now, but 40% I can actually do intentional actions to increase my life satisfaction. And that right there has been a game changer for me. I have to remember I’m an active participant in my life, and to be able to give that gift to other people has just been one of my favorite things from any of this teaching.
TS: Okay. Now I want to go into this a little bit, Chianti, because this life satisfaction pie or happiness pie, it comes from, as you mentioned, the research of Sonya Lube, murky established through studying 2000 twins who are separated at birth. So this is really interesting to me. This is like, okay, we’re dealing with a well-researched statistical group, and I hear you getting excited about the 40% of our happiness pie that relates to intentional activity. But I focused because of my genetics on the 50% of the pie that’s based on my family lineage, which is a bunch of depressed and negative people. And I was like, so 50% has been predetermined for me. I impact that. I want to have 90% control of my happiness. I’m not that excited about 40%, that’s still less than half. So I was a little bit like, I’m glad Chianti is all excited about this 40% number. It’s not blowing my skirt up.
CL: What’s interesting, and you’re not the only person. Even in the book, I tell people that this happened in Satisfaction Pie. The study isn’t as new. It’s an older study and there are a lot of new researchers who are even changing the percentages. So there’s a lot of new research out. And I would say, here’s what I would say, I always tell people, even if you don’t want to focus on the pie, focus on what you need. So if you are like, yeah, the pie doesn’t do it for me, but what will do it for you? So what do you need in this season of your life that will bring you more joy, more peace? Some people don’t even like the word happiness, more ease. So it’s all about framing what you actually want to happen in your life. And I tell people, if you don’t want to change, what is it going to cost you if you don’t change anything? So I always ask, what would feel better? What question or needs would you want to focus on that would actually make you feel better and want to change or do something in your life that doesn’t have you in the same place that you’re in today?
TS: Okay. I want to keep going here for a moment because what I want to learn from you, from your experience is what have you discovered impacts our inherited patterns of really entrenched difficult stuff? And I think I’m bringing this up because as I’ve gotten older, for whatever reason, what I’ve found in my own experience is that what I find the most challenging are deep inherited lineage patterns. I find those the most challenging to change, and I’m having some good results and it’s a lot harder work than it was challenging some of my more on the surface attitudes and behaviors, things that feel legacy patterns from generations before me that feel so entrenched. So I’m just curious what you’ve seen successful with those inherited family patterns?
CL: That’s a good question. Well, one of the things is journaling. Journaling about what belongs to me and what doesn’t. So a lot of what I experienced as an individual was this fear of success. Am I really going to be successful? Are they this imaginary? They, because this is years of oppression on people who look like me, going to allow me to be successful and literally daily work, consistent daily work, writing out what belongs to me in terms of my thoughts and what is something that I’m keeping because I’ve been told my family’s been of people who look like me, have been told is our truth. And so rewriting my truth has been one of the things that works often for me, and I have to do it at least once a month, sometimes even today. Literally just what truth do I want to create for myself?
What truth do I want to tell? Because even though these things were told to me, these things were given to me. I’ve seen evidence of people who have been just beaten down physically and figuratively who look like me. What is my new story that I want to create? And that’s where I start, and that’s just daily work. Another thing that I lean into, and I’m not a therapist, but I tell people, seek therapy because there is a lot of generational trauma that is deeply rooted from even hundreds of years that still shows up in how we appear in the world today. So with the combination of therapy and also just that continuous self-awareness building, I think that’s what’s been working so far for me personally and for my clients.
TS: Tell me, when you do the writing, could you give me a specific example, like you said even today and you were rewriting in terms of belongs to you and what doesn’t belong to you, how you did that?
CL: Sure. So I remember when I started preparing for interviews for the book and imposter syndrome was just creeping in there, and I’m just like, no one’s going to listen to me. I just had these narratives that were coming up, these thoughts that were coming up. And so what I would do was what story do I want to tell tomorrow story? Or what’s a more empowering thought actually is the question. And so the more empowering thought is looking at historical evidence that proves otherwise against those thoughts. So taking my thoughts to court. So if these thoughts are saying, no one’s going to listen to you because you’re not qualified, what is the evidence that proves that I am and that I’m actually who I say I am? And I literally would write from that place and also write, well, what would be the empowering story? So the first step is I have been doing this since 2015. I’ve taught workshops, I’ve seen transformations in my coaching, in my coaching programs, and then the story that I want to create is by the end of these interviews, people are going to feel more connected. People are going to feel set free. They’re going to be equipped to create whatever versions of freedom for their selves. So literally it’s just writing new stories and also bringing in historical evidence that disproves whatever these negative thoughts or this mind tatter is that’s trying to keep me from experiencing my own version of freedom.
TS: You said this interesting phrase, taking my thoughts to court. I really like that because when I think about it, I think I could be a good attorney hernia with my thoughts, and that would really help me. I could make some strong cases against the kind of strange, fantastical negative cases that my brain produces.
CL: And to even get more specific on the taking my thoughts to court. Something I talk about in the book that I found interesting when I was studying positive psychology is, and I think it actually comes from Martin Seligman’s learned optimism research, but it’s this idea of taking your thoughts through the A, B, C, D method. Let’s say something, there’s an activating event, which is a, and then let’s say the activating event is, the example I give is someone who’s looking for work and you’re trying to find a new job and you’re like, I didn’t get this job. Again, that’s the event. That’s the A. And the B is the beliefs that happen from the activating event. It’s like, maybe I’m just not equipped to get a job. Maybe I just don’t have the skills. And then the C is the consequence of these beliefs in this activating event.
Well, what do I do now that I have these beliefs that I’m not qualified? And some people might, you know what? I’m just going to stop looking for a job. I’m just going to be jobless. And then it’s like the turnaround point is the D, which is the dispute, which is the court part, right? It’s like, wait a minute. Now this is a tough time in my life. I can’t find a job right now, but is there evidence that proves that I’ve been able to find work before and this is a very simplified example, or is there evidence that proves that I’m actually qualified or that I am talented or gifted? And then you just roll the tape. Well, I’ve had a few jobs where people have been very acceptable of my gifts and they hire me and I’ve helped friends get hired, and I’m great with resume writing, whatever those things are that might disprove your beliefs that you’re having about this thing. And then the final part of that court case is, well, what are you going to do about it? What’s the changed belief or change behavior? You know what? I am going to reach out to all these interviewers and just get feedback. Maybe they can tell me something that I don’t know about myself, and that’s external awareness too. Maybe there’s something that I’m not aware of that they could tell me about and gift me with that so that I could do better the next time.
TS: First of all, I want to share something with you as my unsolicited input into the external awareness process about Chianti Lomax. And then I’m going to ask you a question about it, which is you are really talented at helping skeptics and people with a skeptical mind appreciate the benefits of a lot of the practices and ideas in positive psychology. And you do it through your own authenticity and also humor and acceptance. And that’s what I found in reading Evolving While Black and also in talking to you, is that you’ve been one of its best advocates. And I’ve talked to a lot of people and ended up feeling a little disconnected from the case that they were making about it, but I feel very connected when you describe it. So I want to share that with you. But then my question about this external awareness is sometimes people have said tremendously affirming things about me, and I noticed the slight way that I kind of defend against it. Sometimes I don’t quite let it in. I’m like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, maybe you haven’t listened to enough interviews to compare me to the right people. I don’t know. It’s hard for me. It’s been hard. I’ve been on a journey to actually really receive people’s positive affirmation. I don’t believe the way they see me exactly, because I still am doing my little item back. So what do you think it is? Why is it hard for us sometimes to actually receive positive affirmation from people to see ourselves as gloriously as they see us?
CL: If you were a coaching client, I would turn that question back on you because I can’t answer that for you. That’s an individual growth opportunity. So I would ask you, Tami, what do you think it is? Why is it so hard for you to receive positive feedback from people who are saying things about you?
TS: Yeah, I’m going to have to really reflect on that. Okay. Okay. Yeah, right in this moment, I’m not quite sure. I think I drive myself hard. And so the driver in me has this. If I let that in, would I somehow become just fat and lazy or something? I’m always driving to the next something. But that’s just the first answer that
CL: Occurs to me, came to mind a question that I received in therapy, because some of this stuff, it’s like maybe I could take it to the therapy couch. A question I received in therapy, because too, we talked about this a little bit in pre-production, like receiving feedback and positive, but the question is, why are you committed to not allowing yourself that gift? Why are you so committed? What keeps you so committed to not allowing the light to come in? And it’s not a question for you to answer, but it’s something that I would journal around. It’s like what keeps me so committed to not allowing those gifts to come in, and I would just have to sit with it.
TS: Now, you mentioned that some people don’t even like this word happiness and obviously the whole positivity, whatever, but then in Evolving While Black, you describe how Dr. Martin Seligman, who so influential in the laying down of the principles in positive psychology talks about three dimensions of happiness. And I found this really helpful because I think it’s a word that I’ve been also really, now we’re going to focus on happiness, but you offer these three dimensions from his work, that there’s the dimension of pleasure and gratification, but also strength and virtue and these positive qualities inside of us, and then also the type of happiness that can come from meaning and purpose. And so I wonder if you can speak more about these three dimensions and do you see them as equally important or different for different people?
CL: Yeah, I really liked how he broke that down because I think that in recent years, happiness seems just so, it doesn’t seem tangible to a lot of people. So I think him breaking it down in those three dimensions just makes it more accessible. I know we’ve been using that word a lot, but even in my brain, it makes it accessible. So the first area of it being about pleasure. So that might look like if people are like, well, how do I get more of this in my life? That’s what I say. So that might look like what I know, that what brings me happiness is taking midday walks. And so guess what I’m going to do? I’m not feeling my best. I need a little bit more spice and joy. I’m going to take my midday walks. That’s the pleasure. Or if you enjoy a healthy, not healthy, but a glass of wine and a healthy way if you want to partake in things, but just doing those small things that bring more pleasure in your life.
And then the second area was the strengths. And this area really resonates with me because I get, I’m one of those weird people that gets joy out of doing my work. So when I’m leaning into my coaching and when I’m doing workshops, I get immense level of satisfaction that really makes me feel happy when I’m able to see someone have a aha moment or a change, or to help someone self-discover something that they never thought about. And then that final dimension, how it resonated with me was meaning and purpose. What am I doing to give back to the world? And that is another area. So I think that what he really does is take it from this lofty, fluffy kind of thing that a lot of people don’t like. It makes it real and relevant so that people can actually touch it and do really basic action steps on a day-to-day basis to create more of it for themselves.
TS: Okay. So what would you say to that person who’s listening who says, okay, intentional activity is the thing that’s going to create the shift, and I know what I need to do in terms of pleasure and gratification. I know what I need to do. I need to eat differently. I need to exercise. I need to do more yoga. I know what I need to do in terms of these areas of virtue inside of myself, and of course I know what would create more meaning and purpose. I’ve been thinking about volunteering for the local hospice group, but I’m not doing these things. I know the intentional activity, or I’m only doing a little, not really doing it. I’m not happy as I could be. Here I am listening to this program and I’m going to get excited for an hour or two, might do something, but then I’m going to become a slug back to where I was.
CL: I would say to them, well, first, those are two. That was kind of a loaded question, but what I typically say for people who are skeptical about the work, doing the work, I say, if you had to look at yourself a year from now and nothing changed, would you be happy with that picture? And then I say, if you had to look at yourself a year from now and you were actually doing the things to get you closer to a life that you would be proud of, that your family would enjoy and love, because sometimes bringing in family and when people think about their children or whoever else that would benefit from them, creating change, that triggers some movement, I would say. What would that look like if you actually did it, and what would it cost you not to do anything? Oh, my relationships won’t change. My marriage won’t change. I’ll still be single, or I won’t have a new job, whatever that is. I think when you ask people and they have to self-discover and do that work, they’re more likely to change than for me to tell you, you just got to do it. So if I ask you, Tami, if you don’t do anything from moving from today and I talk to you next year, what would that cost you?
TS: Right. I think that’s great. That is a great instruction, keto. Yeah.
CL: Yeah. So yeah,
TS: Really, really hopeful. Sure. Your goal is to help people feel authentic and free.
CL: Yes.
TS: That’s what I’ve heard you say. Self-expressed authentic and free.
CL: Yeah.
TS: I think it’s the free word in that that I’m like, wow, that’s big. That’s big. And I’d like to hear more about that. And how free do you feel?
CL: I like that question. The reason, the first part of it, I say that I want people to feel free because I think a lot of us are just bogged down with so many things, thoughts, belief, systems and narratives that are blocking us just from feeling good. And one of the things that I hope the book does for people is help them to release themselves from anything that’s blocking them from feeling good. And at this season, in this season of my life, I feel extremely free for a few reasons. I have released myself from this idea, and this is personal, I’ll share. Thank you. I’ve released myself from this idea that I am not a whole woman if I haven’t had children yet I’ve released myself from this idea that marriage is going to be the pinnacle of my success. I’ve released myself from this idea that having a lot of material things is what is going to drive my joy. And when those releases happened, I just felt lighter. I even cut my hair. You see that from my picture. I felt lighter. I released myself from the idea that I need hair to be beautiful, but I just felt lighter. I felt like I could move faster, figuratively and physically, and I just felt like I was really showing up as the most authentically expressed version of Chianti.
TS: Okay. Lemme ask you a question of that because first of all, thank you for sharing that too. But when you say something like released yourself from the idea that marriage is going to be this pinnacle happy relationship, a happy, I think a lot of people have something like that, some sense of the promised land is coming. When I get there, I’m
CL: Going to be, when this happens,
TS: I’m going to, so how did you release it? What did you do?
CL: Because I started making note. I started taking inventory on what was actually making me, was creating joy for me, and I started paying attention, situational awareness of all the people who were married and still unhappy.
TS: That’s a good one. It’s a good one to pay attention to.
CL: I’m like, wait, so you got clients, friends, everyone? It’s just like, I was like, wait, so there’s still a spot that you feel like you’re missing a thing? And you got the things that that was on the checklist, but the thing that was missing, it was your own self-love confirming yourself, validating yourself. And once I started validating myself, I was like, oh, wait. So I’m a whole person before any of this stuff happens. So whether it happens or not, I’m going to be me and I’m going to live good. And I was okay with that. I think the word I’m looking for was the acceptance of it. It’s like I’m accepting me without any of the external things, and that’s okay.
TS: Now, you mentioned Chianti, that part of your growth journey involved being willing to have boundaries and setting those boundaries even with family members. And that coming from the family that you came from South Carolina, that was a big deal to draw those kinds of lines. And it seems like that’s an important part of being free, is this willingness to draw boundaries when we need to. So I wonder if you can share a bit more about that, especially with family.
CL: Yeah. I think a lot of the times, especially people from the South, we are taught that family is everything is the end all, be all right. And also we’re taught that you don’t talk back. You respect your elders at all costs, even if they are disrespectful to you. But what I realized is having that belief or that narrative isn’t conducive to me as an adult experience in joy. I really have to protect. I’m creating all this joy, I’m creating all this peace and happiness, and then I’m just going to let it go to the wayside. Just because somebody is a relative or somebody is close to me that I love, I’m just going to let them run rampant. No, I believe that if you’re on this journey to create all of this goodness, I think it’s your duty to protect it. And sometimes protecting it looks like setting a boundary, whether it’s a known boundary or a boundary that you yourself know about it. So what I mean by that is let’s say you have a negative family member, and when this person calls you, they’re going to tell you all the bad news that’s happening back at home.
You are having a good day, and you can decide. The boundary can be, you know what? I really want them to know that I care about them. So maybe I don’t answer the phone today, but what I can do is text them. Hey, did you need anything? This is just a practical boundary. Did you need anything? If the answer is no, then I’ll call you tomorrow. I’m doing something right now. So those are realistic boundaries that you might want to set. And what I tell people is a lot of people who aren’t as used to setting them boundaries aren’t a bad thing. Boundaries sometimes help you to just create healthier relationships with the people that you care about or the people around you. They don’t have to be volatile or harsh. Literally, they can be gently placed to these folks so that you can keep your peace of mind and so that you could show up better for the people around you. Because what I’ve seen, when people don’t set healthy boundaries with parents or siblings, you over give or you continue to show up and you overexert yourself and you become overwhelmed. There are all these things that are blockers to you really experiencing a life of joy. If joy is the goal, why not create things that will help you protect it?
TS: You know what I want to call our conversation together? I’m going to call it Evolving While Black to bring attention to the book, but then subtitled, happy, authentic, and free. Happy, authentic, and free. And with that in mind, here’s my final question for you. I’ve heard you say that your hope for the book Evolving While Black is that it will be a rite of passage for Black women everywhere. Tell me what you mean by a rite of passage.
CL: One of my favorite books that I read when I was younger was The Alchemist. And The Alchemist to me feels like one of those books that you gift to a college student or a 20 something that’s going into the workforce that’s trying to find their personal legend. And so I want my book to be that book that you give to a young Black or Brown woman or any woman for that matter. I think the tools are universal as they’re coming into their own journeys and they’re about to go out into the world and just create a thing. Because I feel like this book is going to give them the confidence and the self-efficacy and just the permission to not only be human, but to also protect the things that will allow them to experience more joy, more healing and transformation as they live this life.
TS: Chianti Lomax, author of the new book Evolving While Black: The Ultimate Guide to Happiness and Transformation on Your Own Terms. I’ve really loved talking to you and you’ve helped and inspired me. Thank you so much.
CL: Thank you for having me, Tami.
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