Emptying Out

Tami Simon: You’re listening to Insights at the Edge. Today, on this very special episode of Insights at the Edge, is my conversation with Grammy®-award-winning musician k.d. lang. This conversation was recorded live at Sounds True’s 2014 Wake Up Festival in Estes Park, Colorado. k.d. lang is an incredibly accomplished singer-songwriter, record producer, and actress. To date, she has one eight Juno Awards, four Grammy Awards, and in 1996, she received Canada’s highest civilian honor, the Order of Canada. In 2013, [she] was inducted into the Canadian Music Hall of Fame.

With Sounds True, k.d. lang will be appearing in a special event with Pema Chödrön on June 20 this year—2015—at the famous Royce Hall on the UCLA campus. It’s a benefit both for the Pema Chödrön foundation and for Tools for Peace, an organization that supports the work of Lama Gyatso—k.d. lang’s Buddhist teacher—in the world. [It is] an organization that envisions a world where everyone is connected by the shared values of kindness and compassion.

In this episode of Insights at the Edge, k.d. lang and I spoke about how she met her teacher Lama Gyatso and how her motivation in her life now is to “make an offering to the benefit of all beings.” We talked about what her spiritual practice looks like and how the discipline needed for spiritual practice differs from the discipline needed in her singing. We talked about the voice as a living, breathing specimen. And finally, what does k.d. lang have faith in? Here’s my conversation with k.d. lang:

[The audience applauds, cheers.]

TS: Yikes! Well, I want to start by just setting a little context because I might think that you’re here because I went out to LA to meet you, and I basically got down on one knee and begged. But I don’t think that’s really the reason you’re here. I think it has something to do with your dedication to Tools for Peace, your feeling-sense toward Lama Gyatso, and your relationship with him.

So, I thought it would be good to start: How did you meet Lama Gyatso? How did you know? Were you looking for a teacher? Tell us the story.

k.d. lang: Yes. I thought that I was a Buddhist for a long, long time, even though I didn’t really know what that meant. I got to the point in my career where I was quite frustrated with the way things were going. I said to my friend Linnea, who worked at Warner Bros. Records, “I feel like there’s all these obstacles to my career.” She went, “Obstacles?! Then I need you to meet somebody: my husband, Lama Gyatso Rinpoche.”

So, I met him and it was incredible. He asked me, “Why do you sing?” and I tried my best to explain, “Oh, I try to make people feel good and everything.” Very simple. He said, “What is your motivation?”

That still sticks with me. To really, truly understand why you’re motivated to do something that you do is so incredibly, intensely deep. He just taught me over and over and over again about motivation—especially in the position I find myself in in this lifetime, which is being a singer and having the opportunity to create these waves in the air.

So, I think it really set me on a whole new path in my relationship to [not only] my music, but to myself and to others and to experiencing this life.

TS: There’s so much in what you’re saying that I want to pick up on, but let’s start with this idea of motivation. So, when you go onstage—like on Broadway, recently—you’re not necessarily in an audience like this. You’re in a secular audience; you’re singing music; you’re performing. What’s your motivation?

kl: It would be the same as anything, even when I’m not in front of an audience. When I’m doing anything—whether it’s cooking at the camp or—I would like to think it’s all the time. But, you know, I’m not that advanced.

My motivation is that through the dedication—through acknowledging the act of singing, let’s say, prior to my performance and after the performance—that I take the time to offer it to the benefit of all sentient beings, that I have the mindfulness to make that the reason I’m going up there and singing.

TS: “Offering it to the benefit of all beings.”

kl: Right. Sorry—maybe I’m—

TS: No, I just want to know more about that—that you’re offering the beauty of the moment? You’re offering your heart?

kl: Well, the way I look at it is: we all have our gifts, right? We all have something specifically that we do best. An apple tree produces apples. I sing. That’s what I do.

So, I try to make it mean something every time I do it. I don’t want to waste it.

The interesting thing is that Rinpoche used to say to me, “It’s not just the people in the audience. It goes beyond that. It’s the ants that are crawling under the building. It’s the formless beings that may be floating around in the air. It radiates out into the universe, which is slightly ominous when you think about it.

TS: The ants here in Estes Park are going to be thrilled tonight!

kl: Yes, I know! Ants are big critics.

[The audience laughs.]

TS: There [were] elk here today. I mean, there’s a lot happening in this particular zone.

kl: Right. So, then, I would just have the motivation or the aspiration that, somehow, I would connect through the offering of song, through music—sound offering—that I would connect beings to compassion and peace, which I saw in my teacher.

TS: Now, you mentioned that before you met Lama Gyatso, you had this feeling that there were obstacles in your life. From the outside, I’m not quite sure what obstacles you’re referring to. You can either tell us or not. But I’m curious to know: since meeting Lama Gyatso and practicing as a focus in your life, do you still have that sense? Or has that shifted for you?

kl: Oh, there’s way more obstacles.

[Everyone laughs. The audience applauds.]

kl: The music business is a piece of cake compared to Buddhism! Yes. Truly.

Yes, I have different obstacles. I think they all stem from the same place, which is your own mind. Your own habitual patterns.

But, you know, I’m a really bad student. I don’t want to try to tell you I know anything about Buddhism, because I really don’t. I just know that I was given instructions by my Lama to find my motivation when I sing.

TS: Now, you said that you had a sense—even before you met Lama Gyatso—that you had a connection to Buddhism. So, I would be curious to know: what was that sense? Was it some inkling from an early age, or what was that?

kl: I really think it’s just [that] the concept of reincarnation was always something I believed in growing up in the small town in Consort, Alberta, in the middle of the Canadian prairies. I had no idea what that even meant. But, I understood this continuum of energy, for some reason. I just had an innate understanding that it just doesn’t stop.

TS: Want to share some of your past lives with us?

kl: I don’t know them!

TS: Well, I just thought maybe something occurred to you or—

kl: No, no, no. That comes with practice and I’m slight on that area.

TS: Yes. Just curious.

kl: I am too, to be honest.

TS: We probably have some people out there who want to offer some suggestions and things like that.

kl: Before I knew anything about reincarnation and everything, I used to think I was Patsy Cline’s reincarnation.

[The audience laughs and applauds.]

kl: That’s ego talking right there.

TS: Yes, OK. But that’s interesting, though—that even though the concept of reincarnation seemed intuitively acceptable to you, because you had some sense of being more ancient than X number of years old or something like that as a young person? Or what was that?

kl: I honestly don’t know. I don’t know where it came from. I just couldn’t find an example of where energy actually ceased to exist.

TS: Well, I want to get to one of my most important questions, which is: here you are, Grammy award-winning. Women throw themselves at you. I’ve seen this. No—I’ve seen this. And I’ll tell you why—

kl: That’s not true!

TS: OK, well then: they’re throwing themselves around—their knees get weak when I just say, “I’m going to be interviewing k.d. lang.” Their knees buckle, and they fall. I’ve seen this. I’ve seen this! I’ve seen it. I see it. I see it all the time. So, I’m sharing my truthful—I’m talking authentically here. This is what I see happening.

So, my question is: how do you manage to stay humble and grounded in the face of this?

kl: I don’t think I am.

[Tami and the audience laugh.]

kl: I don’t. I really don’t.

TS: See, now that’s humble! That’s humble.

kl: And it’s not true—that that happens. It’s not true. But, thank you.

TS: Now, I’d like to know more. I know we talked a little about Lama Gyatso, but I’d actually like to know a little bit more because I’m curious to know when you met him—yes, he asked you this question that became so instructive in your life. But what was it about that meeting that you said, “OK. I want to start doing a serious practice. I want to work with this man?” In a way, that’s what brought you here to the Wake Up Festival. “I want to dedicate this much of my life energy to this.”

kl: That’s indescribable, really. Jamie and I met him at the same time. We just—boy. He just had such an infectious, beautiful, ceaseless energy. And [I] never saw him once be self—what is the word?—selfish. Never once. Not one time.

Jamie and I were side-by-side him for 10 years or something. Eight years or nine years. We would be exhausted from insulating the temple, or cooking, or hours and hours of work. He would look at you and he would smile, and he would go, “Oh, my goodness. You girls worked so hard!” But then you’d see him doing the dishes after dinner. And you would be like, “I can’t work less than my teacher.”

So, he was a perfect teacher. He was perfect. And he is perfect. He’s teaching us impermanence. Ugh—terrible lesson to learn, but wonderful at the same time.

He just instilled that dedication. I’d like to think that it was from previous times, but I don’t know.

TS: Can you tell us a little bit about your practice? Do you practice every day for a certain amount of time? Can you share a little bit about what that’s like?

kl: I do when I’m at home, when I’m not travelling. When I’m travelling, it gets a little hard—although I do my preliminary practice every day. I don’t miss a day. [It’s] called the Longchen Nyingthig Ngöndro.

TS: How long does that take you?

kl: Well, when I’m at home, I do a couple hours. When I’m on the road, it can be 15 minutes.

TS: Yes?

kl: Yes. But, you know, I do another practice before I sing. Like I said, I’m a very lowbrow student.

TS: No, that’s established. That’s established.

kl: OK.

TS: But I’m curious how you relate to the discipline of practice and if it has things in common—or not—with your discipline as a musician. The whole notion of discipline in spiritual practice.

kl: To me, it’s inseparable. It certainly is inseparable now.

I remember Rinpoche saying, “Do your practice in the morning [and] you will have way more confidence during the day.” Of course, I tried out different times of the day when I did my practice. But he was absolutely right. You do your practice in the morning and you have this confidence all day long. The discipline of it is that I made a commitment to him that I would do that. I would never want to break that commitment to him.

So, I try my best. I know I’m a lowbrow student. That’s the last time I’m saying it. But I think my job in this lifetime is to be here and support Tools for Peace, [as well as] the incredible work that Jamie and Lauren are doing at Tools for Peace—to have Rinpoche’s aspirations come to fruition, really. Which is Ari Bhöd and Tools for Peace.

TS: And then your discipline as a musician—what’s required of you in that area of your life? What kind of discipline?

kl: Like I said, it’s inseparable. So, when people say, “How do you take care of your voice? How do you discipline yourself as a musician?”, there’s no separating any aspect of your personality with your music. I think that’s one of the reasons why I came out a while back—because, to me, the truth was an important aspect to how I sang.

TS: I’m going to give you a high five on that.

kl: Oh, a high five?

TS: Yes. I mean, the truth is an important aspect of everything. You couldn’t be sitting here or whatever, and not be the truth of who you are.

kl: Yes. I just found it easier.

TS: Yes. I don’t think you could do a very good job of hiding it either, just for the record.

kl: Well, yes . . .

TS: I mean, same for me! Same for me. How are we going to sit here in our truth? I mean, the truth is the totality of who you are.

kl: Is it the hair?

[Everyone laughs.]

TS: But I do want to talk some about this whole taking risks and this idea of stepping out into your truth, and being public. I’m curious what that’s like for you—that edge of courage and how you work that as a person.

kl: Well, again, I think you have to check in with your motivation. I really think you have to go, “Am I taking risks just to be rebellious? Am I taking risks because I think it’s going to buy me more publicity? Am I taking risks because I’m bored? Am I taking risks because it’s uncontrived and it’s who I am?”

I had to really assess that every step of the way. I’ve made some really bad moves in terms of doing it for the wrong reasons—for ego or . . . not really money . . .

TS: Can you give us an example of something you’d look back and go—

kl: No.

[The audience laughs.]

TS: It’s all right. We don’t need to go there.

kl: I really can’t.

TS: No, let’s move on. Let’s move on.

kl: Thank you. You’re very, very kind. I appreciate that.

[The audience laughs and applauds.]

kl: How’s everybody’s week been so far?

[The audience cheers.]

kl: Good. Good, good, good.

TS: But it does seem that even when you’re doing things for the right reason, sometimes things bomb or don’t go as well as—

kl: Oh, yes. A lot of times, things bomb. A myriad of bombs.

TS: Yes. Even when the motivation is good and—

kl: Oh yes. But that’s not what you’re doing it for. Intention and motivation [are] all you can do. Yes—sometimes I get frustrated like everyone. Everyone knows that the failures are just beautiful teachers in ugly clothes.

TS: Now, what would you say to someone—this is just a hypothetical someone—who has a low threshold for failure. It’s just too painful. It hurts too much. Failure really hurts, and it would be terrible if the last thing I want to do is take this risk because I don’t think I can withstand how much I’m going to punish myself afterwards if it doesn’t turn out. Therefore, I’m holding myself back from really moving forward with some of the creative risks.

So, let’s just say that’s a script for some hypothetical someone.

kl: What’s the question?

TS: The question is: How might you help that person step into that risk? How do you deal with the fact that certain things don’t work out?

kl: Well, I don’t know if I would help them step into that risk. I mean: that’s a big deal. It’s a big deal to put yourself up on the pedestal and do something. There are so many talented people—way better singers than me—that just don’t want to deal with the criticism.

There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s just our society that makes you think it’s more important if you’re famous. But it’s not.

[The audience applauds.]

TS: How is it, though—I guess this is part of what I’m curious about—how do you deal with the criticism?

kl: I cry! No, I don’t, really. Sometimes I get a little mad. I get a little down on myself. But then I realize—I’ve always said to myself, “Look, people criticize the weather.”

TS: That’s a good point.

kl: How are you going to teach people not to criticize the weather? You know?

TS: Now, we’ve had a couple of presentations here at the Wake Up Festival on how the structure of our brains can actually change through mindfulness and compassion practices. The more we do those practices, the more this rewiring can happen in the brain.

k.d., I’m curious: have you had any inner sense that your brain is being rewired through the practices you’re doing?

kl: I absolutely do.

TS: Can you tell us about that?

kl: Yes. It’s emptying. I’m stupider.

TS: Let’s drink to that for a moment.

kl: Yes.

[Tami and k.d. clink glasses together.]

kl: I am. I’m stupider. I’m lost. I’m completely lost.

And you know what? I’m OK with that, because I think it’s the process. I kind of believe that that’s the process of faith. I think if I was totally sure that everything I was doing was absolutely right, I think that would be troublesome for sure.

TS: Now, might it be fair to slightly reframe this “stupider” comment as something like “more space?” More sense of open space or something like that.

kl: You know—like I’ve been reading the tweets on Ferguson and Gaza and all the other depressing stuff out there. I feel this energy in myself. I want to tweet that one tweet that just stops everybody. But I can’t even formulate it in my mind. I realize how it’s just the de-opinionating of my own mind, is what the practice is doing, really—I think.

TS: The de-opinionating . . .

kl: Is that a word?

TS: I think it’s a word now. Yes—someone’s tweeting it out there as a new word.

kl: Hey! “Chillax” is in the dictionary now, so . . .

TS: That’s right! Is there a word that you would like to add to the dictionary? A word that’s part of your personal vocabulary you might want to add in?

kl: I have a lot of them.

TS: Would you share one with us?

kl: Oh . . . I don’t know. I’m sure when one pops out, I’m going to make it that word. OK?

TS: OK. But “de-opinionating” as a fruit of the practice you’ve been doing—I think that’s interesting. Do you mean not necessarily taking a position?

kl: Yes. As a musician, middle-of-the-road is not always the best thing to be talking about. But that’s where I find myself. I can’t figure it out. I can just witness it and pray. That’s all I can do right now. I’m getting less and less able to sort through it. It’s becoming more and more this big flurry.

TS: Do you think—I’m going to use the word “space.” So, you can call it whatever you want—

kl: Flurry.

TS: Yes. But that sense of not fixating. Has that informed your performance in some way? I’d be curious. That quality of mind.

kl: Yes. Absolutely. But I also find myself getting less and less interested in performing.

[The audience groans.]

TS: It’s the first time the audience has groaned! The groan! A collective groan has occurred.

How’s the food at the Ari Bhöd Camp?

kl: All right! Pretty good. It doesn’t pay, though.

TS: Yes.

kl: But that’s the truth. That’s the truth. That’s kind of what’s happening. You asked. That’s what’s happening.

TS: I so much appreciate your directness and honesty. It’s my favorite quality. So, I really appreciate that.

Now, you mentioned that there’s a different practice that you do before you go onstage. But what I’m curious about is: is there some way that you intentionally get your ego—for lack of a better word—out of the way when you’re singing? Is there something that you do that allows that to happen?

kl: It doesn’t always happen. I mean: it happens when you’re in the Zone and you really are just a vessel for the music moving through you. I’m sure we all feel that at some point.

But it doesn’t always happen. Ego is a big, powerful bully and it’s always right there. I think I just listen to the music. I think if I just stay present and focus on the music, it can happen.

TS: Now, I have this quote that I heard in an interview with you that I found online. It was that, “The voice is a living, breathing specimen.” I thought that’s really interesting, especially as you’re talking about listening to the music and—in a sense—being with this living, breathing specimen. So, tell me what you mean by that.

kl: Well, it’s like I said: it’s inseparable. It’s infused with my body and my environment and the environment. It’s inseparable. Everything affects it. It’s just completely inseparable.

TS: Now, you mentioned singing to the people—but also the ants, and I brought in the elks and the bear. But you also said the potential invisible beings in this space. I’m curious: what’s your sense of that?

kl: Well, I’ve always had a sense of it—just like I think probably everyone in this room does. But through my practice with Rinpoche, you come to realize that they refer to the retinue or the formless beings. The retinue of people would be maybe similar to an aura. But I think maybe the energies of our karmic gang . . . I don’t know.

That’s what I think. That’s what I’m thinking.

TS: So, do you have a sense that you have a kind of “karmic gang?”

kl: I think everybody has a karmic gang.

TS: Yes, yes.

kl: Yep.

TS: I like your karmic gang.

kl: Thank you.

TS: OK—just a couple more questions.

kl: OK. I love talking to you, but maybe not with a whole room of people.

TS: Fair enough. One of the things that’s always important to me and interesting to me is to know [at] rock-bottom what someone’s faith is—if they relate to that word. I’m curious what that is for you—what you have faith in, what you feel sort of certitude in.

kl: I have absolute, 100 percent faith in my teacher. I have absolute faith in peace and compassion and that the mind can change.

TS: Beautiful. Beautiful.

[The audience applauds.]

TS: OK, k.d. I just have one final question for you.

kl: [Laughs.] Make it a good one!

TS: We’ll see, we’ll see. You never know. OK.

kl: Here we go. I got to put my shoes on for this, because I can feel the weight of it.

TS: No, it’s no big deal. No big deal.

So, I host an interview show. It’s called Insights at the Edge. You might not know that. At the end of the show, I like to ask this question—which is: my sense is that all of us have some kind of growing edge in our life. Something that’s sort of our area where we’re aware that we’re growing, learning, changing. It’s sort of our current life growth area.

I’m curious to know if you relate to that idea—look how beautiful k.d. looks. Just look at her. Really listening. Really hanging back, being here with us. I mean, this is amazing. OK, sorry. So, my question is—my girlfriend said it’s your eyes. I don’t know if that’s true. Anyway, I just notice the whole effect.

But in any case, my question is: what might that be for you? Your edge?

kl: My edge is emptying out. I really believe that [it’s] emptying out. Just becoming a witness—becoming a witness to my own mind, to life, and just emptying out. It doesn’t mean that I’m not participating and I’m not in service to others, because that’s [the] number one important thing.

In a way, it’s just happening. I’m just emptying out. I don’t know. See—I told you. It’s empty up here!

[The audience laughs.]

TS: I think you might be a better practitioner than you think.

Please join me in thanking k.d. lang for coming up!

[The audience cheers.]

TS: My gratitude to k.d. lang for letting us broadcast this conversation recorded live at Sounds True’s 2014 Wake Up Festival. Again, k.d. lang will be appearing in a special event with spiritual teacher Pema Chödrön on June 20, 2015 at the famous Royce Hall on the UCLA campus. It’s an event to benefit Tools for Peace and the Pema Chödrön Foundation. For more information, please visit SoundsTrue.com.

SoundsTrue.com. Many voices, one journey. Thanks for listening.