Diana Spalding: Let’s Nurture Moms and Birth a New Culture

Tami Simon: Welcome to Insights at the Edge, produced by Sounds True. My name is Tami Simon, I’m the founder of Sounds True. I’d love to take a moment to introduce you to the new Sounds True Foundation. The Sounds True Foundation is dedicated to creating a wiser and kinder world by making transformational education widely available. We want everyone to have access to transformational tools, such as mindfulness, emotional awareness, and self-compassion, regardless of financial, social, or physical challenges. The Sounds True Foundation is a nonprofit dedicated to providing these transformational tools to communities in need, including at-risk youth, prisoners, veterans, and those in developing countries. If you’d like to learn more or feel inspired to become a supporter, please visit soundstruefoundation.org.

You’re listening to Insights at the Edge. Today my guest is Diana Spalding. Diana is a Certified Nurse Midwife, Pediatric Nurse, and mother of three young children. She has a master’s degree from NYU in midwifery and has worked as a nursing school professor at Cedar Crest College, as well as a midwifery school advisor at Georgetown University. She’s the digital education editor at Motherly, and the founder and instructor of Gathered Birth, a motherhood wellness center in Pennsylvania. With Sounds True, Diana Spalding is the author of the new book The Motherly Guide to Becoming Mama: Redefining the Pregnancy, Birth, and Postpartum Journey.

Sometimes in my own experience, I’m not aware of how a group of people has been trespassed upon, dishonored, not held up, revered, and supported until somebody pulls off the cover and points it out really, super clearly. When it comes to mothers in our world today, Diana Spalding has a gift for doing just that and showing us a path to what it would mean to honor, nurture, and revere mothers in a new way, a way they actually really need. Here’s my conversation with someone who is a very articulate revolutionary, Diana Spalding.

 

TS: You created, Diana, a very powerful 2020 TED Talk called, “What If We Nurtured Moms?” In this TED Talk, you made several strong statements, including this statement: we are asking mothers to nurture in a society that doesn’t nurture them back. Maybe it’s obvious to you, all the ways that we don’t nurture moms, that our society doesn’t nurture moms. But quite honestly, it wasn’t apparent to me until I listened to your TED Talk and really started reflecting on it. So I’d love you to start our conversation there. How is it that we are asking mothers to nurture in a society that doesn’t nurture them back?

 

Diana Spalding: Absolutely, and thank you so much because I think it’s just such an important topic to continue to talk about. So I appreciate the opportunity. There are a number of, I guess I would say, society flaws when it comes to how we take care of or don’t take care of mothers. Specifically in the United States, everything from our lack of paid parental leave at a national level. Most recently that I checked, it was about only 17 percent of mothers had access to a paid parental leave, which means that people are either going unpaid or are forced to go back to work sooner than perhaps they are physically, emotionally, mentally ready to do so. That takes a strong toll on mothers and on families.

There’s also this prevailing idea in our society that we need to bounce back—this like, okay, the baby’s here, time to get back to life as normal. When really, it’s so far from that. There are so many cultures around the world where mothers are cocooned in this period of time where their only real jobs are to take care of themselves and to take care of the babies. Here, we start pressuring people to lose the baby weight and to get back to exercising and all of that. Really, you’re healing from birth or recovering from the adoption journey, which is significant as well. So I think that takes a real toll.

Then there are just these subconscious messages that we grow up around and we don’t really even notice that they become part of our tapestry of beliefs. This idea that once you become a mother, that’s it, that’s your identity and your child’s happiness and every waking moment and future success is all that you should really be thinking about. There’s not a lot of acknowledgement that you are still a person and you are still a very important person. You can have an existence, a personhood, outside of your baby. So a lot of moms feel this immense guilt anytime that they do something that’s for themselves. Oh gosh, I took a shower and I was in there for half an hour. What’s going to happen to my baby? As opposed to laying this foundation of, yes, you should take a shower and you should stay in there for an hour if you want to. You should take care of yourself. So those are just a few of the ways.

Then we look at the healthcare system and we look at the rates of maternal morbidity and mortality and how it’s increasing in the United States, particularly for black women. As I shared in the TEDx Talk that you were referring to, I feel that if mothers were really valued in our society, that would not be the case—that the numbers would not be rising, we would be working harder to fix those problems. So those are a few, a few of the foundational issues.

 

TS: As I’m listening, I can imagine a new mom who says some of the things you named feel under my direct control. It’s under my direct control how I relate to my body image after I give birth to a child. It’s somewhat under my control too, if I take a long shower or I don’t take a long shower or if I say to my friends, “Look, I don’t want to just talk about my child. I also want to talk about my interests.” But a lot of the things you named feel outside of someone’s control. So what would you say to people who are like, I don’t know what to do about those things that feel outside my control?

 

DS: Yes, I think it’s really true. It’s interesting because I talk a lot about this concept of “mom burnout.” And a lot of the feedback that I get is this: well, moms should do a better job taking care of themselves. Putting the onus of self-care on mothers, and I think that that … Could we all do a better job of taking care of ourselves? Absolutely. Can I say no to volunteering for the PTA and the thing? Absolutely, and when we are rushed through a maternity leave or whatever, again, it takes a serious toll.

So I think that one of the things, even though this is all fairly discouraging, one of the things that I actually feel optimistic about is that I feel like we are talking about these issues much more than we ever did. I feel like people are starting to draw attention to them and say, “Hey, wait a second. Other countries are doing way better than we are.” Politicians are starting to talk about it as they campaign, so I do think that it will get better, I do feel optimistic. But I think that we have to continue to have these conversations.

Part of it is dropping our guard a little bit. I’m a big Brené Brown fan, and being vulnerable with each other and saying, “Hey, today was really hard and here’s why,” because when we are able to connect with other mothers and other parents and other people in general about those issues, it’s the start. It’s the start to recognizing what’s wrong. Once we do that, we can start to fix it.

 

TS: I know that you fighting for mothers—you say in the TEDx talk, “I’ll go to my grave fighting for mothers.” That this is your mission.

 

DS: It is.

 

TS: This is your mandate. “I’ll go to my grave fighting for mothers.” Can you share with our listeners a little bit about how this became the torch you knew was yours to carry in the world?

 

DS: Yes. I am the daughter of a midwife. Growing up, I loved birth and loved pregnancy, but it was always her thing. So I was like, well, that’s what she does; that’s not for me. I’m going to do something else, and 27 years later I graduated from midwifery school. So first I was a pediatric nurse and I found, honestly, in that role that the most rewarding part was working with the mothers. Certainly working with the children was important but helping the mothers that were scared and feeling like they didn’t have answers and all of that felt really great. Then I went to become a midwife and felt that connecting with mothers on a deeper level than just what was happening with their bodies—I was blown away by that experience. I became a midwife before becoming a mother myself, so I found that really surprising.

Even in the medical system where I worked, I had like 15 minutes per patient. So it was like, is the baby okay? Here’s what test you need. See you in a month. Really, I started to feel really sad that women had tons of questions and concerns about pregnancy and birth and their living situations and you name it, and I didn’t have an opportunity to address them.

So then when I became a mother myself and I just had all of these, as I say with kids, “big feelings” about motherhood. So I just started writing. I just started writing them down. I wrote them down and people started to read them and I realized oh, this isn’t just me. Motherhood is this really complex transformation that we go through and we have a lot of work to do. It’s physical but it’s also emotional. I think that as I realized all of … And I’m continuing to realize all of the layers of issues that exist. Also, the potential for if we were to really nurture mothers. Every study that’s out there says that when mothers thrive, their children thrive. So by addressing the concerns that mothers face, not only are we going to help them but we’re going to help future generations. So yeah, I think that’s how the torch got lit.

 

TS: We started our conversation looking at these systemic issues here in the United States, how we don’t nurture moms. I mean, I have my own things I might nominate, but what do you think is underneath that? Meaning, what is it that we’ve bought into instead of something pretty obvious, like let’s honor the mothers in our culture?

 

DS: Sexism. I think would be a big one. This idea of —I don’t know if I’m using the word correctly—this archetype of the mother who is supposed to be this giving vessel of love and nurturing and everything, where she just pours from herself and doesn’t ever need to be replenished. I guess it’s flattering in a way, that people think that we can do that, but it’s obviously not very realistic.

Yeah, and I think sexism. I think this idea that your job as a woman is to take care of other people, way more than it is to take care of yourself. I think that is why we have the guilt that comes up. The guilt for taking a shower or for going on a vacation by yourself or for going back to work because your work fulfills you—or not going back to work outside the home because that is the right choice for you. All of these concepts are making women feel like they can’t trust themselves. You can’t trust yourself in terms of how you take care of your baby. You can’t trust that you’re going to make the right decisions for your family. I think all of these societal messages have built up in us.

Then we go through this huge transformation into motherhood and suddenly we’re like, oh, I’m not good enough. It’s pretty devastating.

 

TS: Now, interestingly, the Motherly brand, of which you’re the digital education director, talks about being a lifestyle brand that redefines motherhood. I was very interested in this, by notion of redefining motherhood. You’ve just explained some of the things that you don’t think it is. This well of unlimited resources that can just give, give, give. How do you want to define motherhood today?

 

DS: I think that motherhood today is defined individually by the mother, by the parent. I think that is one of the big foundational changes we’re seeing. My hope is that there will no longer be this idea of the good mother, or oh, I was a bad mom today or I was a good mom today. No, you were just a mom today and tomorrow you’re going to be a mom, and in a year you’re going to be a mom. So we are allowed to define what motherhood means for ourselves, whether that means becoming a mother or not becoming a mother. Whether it means working outside the home or not working outside the home. I mean, there are a thousand different decisions that we make in terms of this journey, and we are allowed to make those decisions based on the truths that we know of ourselves and our children and our families, not based on what other people have told us. those decisions should be.

 

TS: Okay, so someone’s listening and they’re thinking to themselves, I want to be part of the solution of honoring and nurturing moms in the world. I don’t have children right now but I know many people who are new moms or etcetera. What can I do to help shift and help them feel nurtured and honored?

 

DS: Yes, I love that you’re asking this. Honestly, my answer to this question sounds so obvious, and I keep trying to come up with a better answer and I can’t. It’s just number one: help mothers feel important. I think that part of when we look at the climbing morbidity and mortality rates—it’s hard to feel important in a society where that number is going up and now down. It’s hard to feel important when we don’t have paid leave. So think about, how can I help this mother who I know understand that I think she’s important? That could be a really, really small thing. That could be a phone call just as you’re going to sleep at night to let her know, say, “Hey, I think that you’re important and I think you’re doing a really good job.” Or maybe it’s bringing her a meal, or it’s writing to your politicians, or advocacy on whatever level feels appropriate to you.

But ultimately, [it’s] creating more of a cocoon of social support around her, because once she feels important to her little village, to the people that are around her, that’s going to grow and grow and grow. She will realize that she is actually important to the entire society.

 

TS: Now you’ve mentioned a couple of times, Diana, the climbing morbidity rate for new moms. Can you help me understand what’s driving that?

 

DS: Yes, absolutely. Well, a big part of that is racism. Black women in the United States are three to four times more likely to die from pregnancy, birth, and postpartum challenges. Every study that’s being done right now is finding that racism is a cause of that. As we know, with everything that’s going on in the world right now, racism is a huge issue that our country is trying to face. So, that’s a big part.

A lot of the studies are finding, for example, is that it takes doctors longer to respond to reported symptoms when those symptoms are being reported by a woman of color. So often we hear horrible stories about how doctors and midwives and nurses don’t listen until it’s too late. So one of the foundational changes that needs to happen is addressing this institutional racism that exists in the healthcare system.

There are a lot of different factors. I think part of it is access. This is for all women—access to prenatal care, having visits that are longer than 15 minutes so that you can get to the real issues. There are environmental concerns, there are postpartum concerns. Right now most people, and this is changing, but most people don’t have their first postpartum visit until six weeks after they give birth. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists is trying to change this, which is great. But it’s still an issue because normally it goes well, but when something is wrong you need to get in and see your provider, and that can be hard to do in the beginning. So those are just a few of, what I think to be the causes of the problem.

 

TS: Now, I asked you for this person who knows a mom and wants to help, what they could do? Really, the theme here is: let’s honor moms. Let’s honor moms. What if we nurtured moms as a culture, what would that be like? What if, as we said, we’re asking mothers to nurture in a society that doesn’t nurture them back? What if we nurtured them back? Okay, our engineer here for our conversation today is a gentleman whose wife had a baby three months ago. They had a baby three months ago.

 

DS: Congratulations.

 

TS: For a father or really for anybody who is the partner to a woman who has given birth to a baby, what can they do? What’s their responsibility? What needs to change?

 

DS: I think number one is they also need to feel empowered to take care of themselves. This is—I’m a midwife so I’m focused on moms—but dads and all partners, regardless of if you had a baby, if the baby came out of you, are working incredibly hard. So number one is taking care of yourself. Number two is, I want to say the word “allowing.” It’s giving space and allowing for her to go through whatever it is she needs to go through.

There is a theory, there’s a TED Talk about it, and her name is escaping me, I apologize, Dr. Alexandra Sacks. And she talks about matrescence. It’s this process that our body goes through as we become mothers. It’s almost like a second puberty. So with that comes hormonal changes and emotional waves and certainly the physical things that are going on. Part of, I think, the issue is we are, as society, asking moms to push back on that. No, no, no, no, no, you don’t cry. You’re a mother, motherhood is magical. You love being a mother, it’s a gift, you’re happy. As opposed to allowing space for her to have a really bad day and not like motherhood for a little bit. That’s okay. Allowing her body to do what it needs to do to heal, as opposed to forcing this bounce back—you’ve got to lose the baby weight, all of this. So again, just giving your partner the space to go through this change as you need to.

I think the other big piece is looking at mental health. Statistics vary but as many as one out of five women will have some kind of postpartum mental health concern, be it postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, or postpartum mania. There are others as well. When partners can be accepting and honest as those changes come through, I mean, it can be life-saving. It can be incredibly helpful. So having lots of conversations. I think this goes for partners and also friends and family members. It’s an awkward conversation, I know, but saying to a new mother, “Hey, are you okay?” Encouraging mothers to seek mental healthcare when they need it, or even if they don’t think they need it, before they need it, because when you have, again, your small village supporting you and telling you that it okay to call a therapist, that can be incredibly powerful as well.

 

TS: Now you mentioned, Diana, that underneath, not honoring moms as a society, one big factor is just plain old sexism. What I’m curious about is when it comes to parenting equality, whether it’s a same-sex couple or a heterosexual couple, where do you see the big ahas need to happen for couples?

 

DS: I think it comes down to communication. I think that everyone, I really like to think that people in partnerships come in with the best intentions and we just fall into our patterns. We don’t necessarily realize that the patterns aren’t necessarily as helpful as they could be. So I think that having lots of conversations.

I was right in the middle of writing the book and I was working all the time writing the book and my husband was working part-time, but somehow I was still the person who was both dropping the kids off at school and picking them up and doing the thing. It never even occurred to me say something, even though I was writing a book and I would write for an hour and then I’d have to run to pick up and dah, dah, dah, dah. My husband is great, and finally—I mean months in—I was like, “Hey, do you think that we could change how this is working?” He was like, “Oh my god, yeah. Of course.” So having lots of conversations about, this was really easy for me today and this was really hard for me today, can be helpful. Because I think, again, the partners are well intentioned but may not even realize where they could be supporting each other better.

Also, acknowledging that that’s going to change. There were times when I was writing the book—I was writing all the time. So my husband was the main parenting dude. Then the book was done and then he had a lot more work. So then I was the main parenting dude. So having those conversations so that you can make sure that you’re distributing the work evenly and, what I was saying, assuming good intention. I think that sometimes we think, well how come she didn’t know that I had these deadlines and she always this and she always that. Well, maybe she really didn’t know, or maybe she’s also really going through something. So assuming good intentions and [having] lots of conversations would be where to start.

 

TS: Now, maybe it’s obvious to you and the listeners at this point—I think it is—that I’ve never had children. I don’t have a personal experience in this regard but I have run a business for 35-plus years, and as a business person, listening to you and watching your TED Talk, I started asking some hard questions about what my responsibility is as an employer to the many new mothers and fathers at Sounds True. Quite honestly, I think Sounds True has reflected industry standard norms for benefits. I think our benefits are competitive and etcetera, but they’re not unusual. I started asking some tough questions like, should we be doing more?

So I’m curious for a moment, if you speak to the business humans out there, what you recommend? What lens should we be looking through?

 

DS: I love that you’re asking that question. Honestly, I think that if more people even started asking that question, I think that that’s a huge start. I think that having that introspection and that self-assessment is really important and is absolutely the first and second and third step. I also acknowledge that it’s really different for all different businesses. In addition to Motherly, I own a very small business that is a tiny, tiny business. If I had employees, which I don’t, I couldn’t afford to pay anybody for … so I acknowledge that it’s much easier said than done.

I think one of the things that I’ve seen work really well, when it’s possible, is to have lots of communication, again, with the employees. A lot of the moms that I work with and speak with are terrified, I guess is the word to describe it, to talk to human resources or their boss, or if they are a boss, to talk to their employees about time that they want to take off. People are really nervous to announce their pregnancies at work. So I think a big part of it is creating a culture where that’s not the case, where people know that all of their life happenings—pregnancy, moving, whatever it is—will be celebrated and will be welcomed in the workplace. So I think that’s a big part of it.

I think also, and part of living through this pandemic has forced this issue, but acknowledging that people can be workers and parents and they don’t have to hide those two parts of their life from each other. I think that there’s this culture in—I would imagine this not, from everything that I know about Sounds True, my sense is this is not the case, but at a lot of companies where you go to work, it’s frowned upon to leave early to go to your kid’s play or take the kid to the doctor appointment or whatever. Likewise, when you’re a parent, it would be frowned upon to not be able to go to your kid’s play because you have a big presentation that day or something. One of the things that the pandemic is forcing is that people are having these important Zoom calls with kids running around in the background. I think that’s so healthy. So creating flexibility where it’s feasible—and this is going to be different for every type of business—but creating flexibility in the workplace where possible.

So saying to people, “Hey, you know what? We don’t have a ton of extra money, but why don’t you take an extra week of paid parental leave?” Again, in the grand scheme of things, is an extra week or an extra couple of days going to make a huge difference on her health? No, but it comes back to feeling important. So feeling like, wow, my boss is doing everything that they possibly can to make sure that I feel valued and that I feel important. I think that is a huge step and will go a long way.

 

TS: Is your view that paternity leave and maternity leave should be looked at the same or differently, or …?

 

DS: It is, it is. I think every family is different and has unique needs. So to say that only the person who gives birth gets to take a certain amount of time off, historically that’s what’s been done, but we know that families look very unique from each other. So there are countries where they will say you have X number of weeks to use as a family, use them as you will. So parents can choose to, if there are two parents, they can choose to take the time off together or one can take some time off and then the other can take some time off, or maybe you can … I don’t know if you can do this, but maybe we’re going to take some time off then go back to work, then take some more time off. Again, incorporating the possibility for flexibility so that families can make it work for them. Because I think ultimately, when families can strive for a balance, the never-ending quest for balance, you’re going to be a better employee. You’re going to be loyal to that company that gave you an extra two days of maternity leave because you felt important to them. I think ultimately, that will start to fix the workplace issue.

 

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TS: One of the things I read in, I think it was in one of your blog posts. First of all, you’re a great blogger.

 

DS: Thanks.

 

TS: Those are so well written.

 

DS: Thank you, thank you very much.

 

TS: Yeah, really, you have a real gift.

 

DS: Thank you.

 

TS: But what I remember reading is that you mentioned that moms actually make a stellar, better—you used a statistic and I can’t remember what the statistic is, that moms are actually exceptional performers in the workplace. This got my attention because I was suddenly, as an employer, doing the calculations of okay, we’re going to have these great benefits. More and more people are going to come to Sounds True. So I was doing this math in my head while I was reading your blogs. Then also I read, oh, but they’re exceptional performers, that’s phenomenal. So what is the research behind that?

 

DS: Yes, so the research is finding that mothers are as productive, if not more productive, than their coworkers who are not mothers. There’s a little bit, there are charts where there is a little bit of a dip, I guess, in productivity right after the child comes into their lives, but ultimately, over the span of the child’s life, mothers are more productive. This, I think, is counter to what a lot of people assume. Lots of studies have found that if you look at two resumes and compare one where the person—the resumes are exactly the same but one of them indicates that she’s a mother and one of them doesn’t. The person who is not a mother is going to get the job and the person who is is not, because people assume that the mother is not going to be as productive.

I think there are changes that happen, and there are definitely changes that happen to the brain when you become a mother. So I wonder if that’s part of it. I also think that you have to be really productive when you’re a mom because you learn how to get a lot of stuff done in a little pocket of time. So I think that that’s part of it. We have to do more research into the area to figure out exactly what it is, but I love that you’re thinking about that for Sounds True.

 

TS: Now, let’s just talk about you, for a moment, as a highly productive human being who is also the mother of three young children and just finished writing a 500-plus page book with a ton of information and research, etcetera, along with continuing your job as the digital education director at Motherly. Let’s talk about you. How did you manage to do all that?

 

DS: I need to do a better job of listening to my own advice is number one, that’s part of it. I think that there is probably, or I know that there’s a part of me that writing about this and talking about this, I think, is therapeutic for me as well, because I struggle as well with the: but you didn’t do enough today, are you sure you should be taking a nap? Are you sure you should be going to bed right now? All of that. So part of talking about this is for me.

I think also, it’s just what I’m passionate about. So there were times where, in writing the book and the writing that I do now, I just can’t sleep. I just have to come and write. So the writing is often done at odd, impractical hours, but it’s very heart-centered work for me. It’s very, I would say, emotional work for me. Writing the book, I always tell people that I was prepared for how much time it would take. I knew it would be a lot of work. I was not prepared for how emotional the process would be.

When I started writing, I wrote very mechanically, almost. I remember the team at Sounds True came to me and they were like, “So, this doesn’t really sound true. This doesn’t really sound like you. You can bring your voice into this.” Once I had that permission, it just flowed. So part of it is giving myself permission to be me and to let the writing be emotional when it needs to be emotional. It doesn’t always have to feel like a science book. So that helped. The times where I just let myself go were the times where I was the most productive. The times where I forced myself into a box, I was not very good at all at writing a book.

 

TS: Now, let’s talk a little bit about, specifically, The Motherly Guide to Becoming Mama. This book redefines pregnancy, birth, and the postpartum journey, all the way through. Why did you and the Motherly team feel that this book was needed and that this book was needed now? What wasn’t existing out there on the bookshelves that you wanted to make sure you covered in this book?

 

DS: There are tons of great pregnancy books out there. I have learned a lot from all of them. I think one of the things I had found, and we had found at Motherly in general, is that so much of the experience is about the baby. Here’s how to be pregnant in order to have a healthy baby. Here’s what to eat, here’s the tests that you need, here’s how to raise the baby. There wasn’t anything that we could find that was mother-centered, that was woman-centered, that looked at the holistic journey of pregnancy. It is so much more than something that happens in your uterus. Pregnancy is about your mind and your heart and your finances and your career and your hobbies and your friends and your relationship. It’s everything. We wanted to create a book that gave equal weight to all of those experiences—something that gave people permission to want to make changes to their career or not, and gave people permission to be excited about being pregnant and to also be really scared about being pregnant. Something that really addressed, again, the holistic experience of it. So we kept saying, “Gosh, I wish there was a book. There should be a book about this.” Then there was this one moment where we all looked at each other and said, “Oh, maybe we should write that book.” And here we are.

 

TS: Now, I wanted to talk to you about something that got my attention from your blog writing, which is a post that you wrote about “toxic positivity,” how toxic positivity is rampant in motherhood. So, what is toxic positivity?

 

DS: So this is my interpretation. I am not a therapist, but toxic positivity is this idea that on the spectrum of emotions, the good ones, the positive ones are welcome and worthy, and the negative emotions are not. We see this in a lot of ways in our society. I realized in writing that article how many expressions we have for telling someone to cheer up. It’s like, cheer up, chin up, buck up, good vibes only—all of these expressions. But that can be pretty dangerous, and it gets toxic when we start to tell people that, again, only the positive emotions are welcome because first of all, that’s not reality. In any given day, a human being is going to have all of the emotions, especially right now during the pandemic. You wake up and you’re like, no things are OK. Yeah, things are going to be pretty good. Then you check the news and your emotions go plummeting. Or you get a phone call from a friend who’s having a hard time and things go plummeting.

So first of all, toxic positivity is not realistic, and I think that it’s also damaging. It’s damaging to tell people that they can’t be in the muck, that they have to sweep all the negative stuff under the rugs. We see this a lot in pregnancy and birth and motherhood.

An example of this is traumatic birth. When somebody has a birth experience and they feel really bad about how their birth went, so often in our culture we say, “Well, you and the baby are healthy. That’s the most important thing.” Yes, agreed, it is the most important thing, but it’s not the only thing. So giving people space to grieve, to just be in a bad mood for a little while is really important. When it comes to motherhood, again, motherhood has just been put on this pedestal. Oh, it’s magical, it’s amazing, it’s the best thing ever. It’s amazing and it’s magical, I don’t know if it’s the best thing ever. It’s wonderful, but it’s also really hard. It’s really important not to shame mothers or anybody for having those bad feelings because when we shame them, we make it feel like they have to hide that part of themselves, which is definitely not healthy emotionally.

 

TS: I’ve heard lots of mothers express their disgruntlement, if you will, or the difficulties they’re having with being a mom through a lot of sarcasm. But often not in just a vulnerable way, that this is just okay, I’m having a bad day, etcetera, but it comes out in dark humor instead. You have a three-fold solution for toxic positivity. You say step one, welcome the negative. Two, increase our empathy. Then three, embrace the phrase, “yes and ….” I wonder if you could take us through all three of those steps.

 

DS: Absolutely, and thank you for reminding me because it’s been a minute since I wrote that but yes, the first one. Welcoming the negative, I think it’s acknowledging the spectrum of emotions and acknowledging that the shadows are just as real as the light. The bad moods are just as important as the good moods. Certainly, there is a fine line between being in a bad mood and being depressed. So if someone is concerned about the level of negativity that they feel in their lives, certainly reaching out for mental health support is incredibly important, but also acknowledging that it’s OK to not like stuff. It’s okay to vent; it doesn’t mean that you hate motherhood, it just means that it’s really hard.

The second one is increasing our empathy. Understanding that everyone’s story is different. We see a lot of this forced toxic positivity on social media where people will say things like, “Why are you complaining? Your life is so perfect, look at you.” Well maybe, or maybe there’s some stuff that’s not being shown on social media that’s not quite so perfect. Another aspect of toxic positivity that I bring up in that article is racism. By saying things like, “Well no, no, I’ve never seen racism. I don’t think that it really exists.” Well maybe you’ve never seen racism but racism is a very real experience for many, many people. So when we expand our empathy, we start to understand that other people are having experiences that we aren’t having. Those experiences are just as real as ours.

The third is embracing the phrase, “yes, and….” So I think that our human brains like things to be very neat and organized. This is good and this is bad, but life isn’t like that. So you can think that most people in the world are good and acknowledge that institutional racism is a really big problem. You can love motherhood and really look forward to bedtime so you can get a break. You can love your job and be really excited that it’s the weekend. Those things don’t necessarily cancel each other out, so giving each other and giving ourselves permission to experience the duality of life, I think, will help with toxic positivity.

 

TS: I think that’s very, very helpful. I think a lot of times people think, I know being grateful works so I’ll focus on the gratitude, which is true. It does, it opens your heart and etcetera, but with your “yes, and …,” it’s like, I can be grateful and I can be disappointed about X, Y, Z or struggle.

 

DS: Exactly.

 

TS: You share your own, one of your personal parenting mantras that I just loved. “You’re not doing it wrong, it’s just that hard.” How did you come up with that mantra?

 

DS: I am going to be honest and say that another mom said it to me. I was leaving a parenting class with—at this point I had two kids, a toddler in one hand … No, no, no, I had three. I had a toddler in one hand, a four-year old somewhere, and a newborn, I don’t even know, a newborn in a car seat. The toddler took off and went running into the parking lot. I grabbed him just in time but I fell down on my knees—and by the way, scraping your knees as an adult is incredibly painful. I did not remember that as a child. So I scraped my knees, I dropped the kids, and I just start crying. This sweet mom came up to me and she just said, “Hey, you’re not doing it wrong, it’s just that hard.” It was this lightning-bolt moment for me and it’s become my mantra, because I think that, again, going back to the foundational issues that we started our conversation with, we have this idea that we are not parenting correctly, that we are doing something wrong. Oftentimes you’re not; oftentimes it’s just really hard. I think that that applies to parenthood but it applies to so much else.

During the pandemic, it’s come up over and over again. Oh gosh, well I should do this, I should do this. Why don’t I feel grateful? Why don’t I …? You’re not doing it wrong, it’s just that hard. There is no perfect answer. There is no perfect choice. It’s just hard. I take a lot of solace in that and reminding myself that no, you’re not failing. You’re dealing with something that’s really hard and you’re doing the best job that you can as you make your way through this.

 

TS: Now, previously in our conversation, you were talking about your own small business. You shared with us that it’s a very small business that you founded. One of the things I thought was so interesting is that your business is called Gathered Birth. I thought to myself, what an interesting title. Can you explain that, Gathered Birth?

 

DS: Yeah, yeah. I think as with a lot of stuff, I thought about it and thought about it and thought about it, and then went to sleep and woke up two hours later. I was like, oh, this is what it has to be called. Part of it has to do with the village aspect and gathering around pregnant and new parents. I think that part of it is also that we go into all experiences in life, but in my case birth and motherhood and beyond, gathering bits and pieces of information. So you’ve gathered what you’ve learned, possibly, from your family and what you’ve learned from your friends and what you’ve seen on TV and in the media. We come to our birth with all of these different things that we have gathered. Then we take all of that and we have this very intense, personal, intimate experience. So the idea of welcoming all of those aspects and, again, gathering around each other as we cross this threshold into motherhood—I don’t know—just felt like a moment to be celebrated.

 

TS: Now, a couple times in our conversation you’ve referenced other cultures. I know that you have your bachelor’s degree in anthropology and also throughout The Motherly Guide to Becoming Mama you’ve sprinkled some teachings from other cultures that perhaps will be helpful to people. I’m wondering if you could share with our listeners maybe just a couple of lessons from other cultures that you’ve been able to incorporate into your own “becoming mama” life.

 

DS: I think that one of the most empowering things that I’ve learned is how other cultures take care of new mothers. So in Mexico it’s called la cuarentena, and there’s lots of different names for it, but there’s these periods of time where, I keep using the work cocoon, but mothers are cocooned and they get special treatment and special massages. They don’t have to cook, or the mother-in-law comes and lives with you for a month so that you don’t have to do anything but take care of yourself. So it’s really shed a light for me on how we can do a better job in reveling and marveling in this period of taking care of ourselves. So that, I think, has been the biggest one for me: how can we emulate the ideas of making that period of time a little bit more sacred? How can we create rituals? Women-centered, mother-centered, parent-centered rituals that, again, help parents to understand how important they are, as opposed to our culture, which is very productivity centered. Great, the kid is out, when can you come back to work? As opposed to, no, this is a sacred period of time when we’re not going to bother you because you have a lot going on. So that’s been important for me as a mother.

I think also, not just in that postpartum period. There are seasons of life and there are times when I think it’s okay to have another little moment of hibernation. You’re going through something big, you are in the middle of a pandemic, you’ve just written a book, and you’re really tired. All of these big things that we go through in life, it’s okay to have periods of time where you’re really productive, and periods of times where you’re, I would say, productively resting. You are going easy on yourself. Both, “yes, and ….” Both of those experiences are equally important and valuable.

 

TS: I thought it was interesting that the final segment of The Motherly Guide to Becoming Mama is all about what you’re referring to as the fourth trimester. It seems that, using that language—the language of the fourth trimester, which I’ve heard in the last few years being referenced in different ways—that really changes how we view it. It changes, I think. So I’m curious what your view of that …

 

DS: Absolutely, yes. I think it changes it for the mother, it also changes it for the baby. I think we have expectations of the baby, that baby is going to sleep through the night and baby is going to do all these things. The baby is very much still cooking and growing, and so it helps us to remember to give the baby some grace and to let them just be little. We do a good job, or a moderate job I would say, of taking care of pregnant women in this country. They’re like, oh, she’s in her second trimester so don’t upset her. Well, why can’t we continue that after the baby comes?

But I think it’s interesting that you’re talking about the words because I think the words that we use in obstetrics in general, in the whole field, are not great. We have a lot of terminologies that are sexist or scary or violent. So I love that you mentioned that because I think being really intentional with the words that we choose to describe all of these periods of time can have a really big impact on how we view the experience as a whole.

 

TS: Okay, just two final questions for you, Diana. The first one is, you’ve talked about the challenges of mothering in the pandemic. I’m sure there’s a lot more to say about that, but part of what I’m curious about is something you write about, which is how the pandemic has lit up activism. Your activism, the activism I think for a lot of people. What’s going on for you personally that this is what’s happened?

 

DS: None of the issues that we are seeing right now, aside from this virus, are new. The racism, the lack of health insurance, the inequalities in income, the fact that our insurance is tied to our employment. None of these issues are new. The pandemic has just shown a light, lifted the rug, and now we can’t really ignore them anymore. It’s uncomfortable and it’s hard and that doesn’t matter.

So I think that this is—I hesitate to use the word “silver lining” because this is a real tragedy for a lot of people. But once we have, I think as a society, really acknowledged these shortcomings, we cannot go back. I don’t know who said it but maybe it was Brené Brown who said “normal never was.” But this idea of going back to “normal”—no, no, I don’t want normal anymore. I don’t want to go back to all of these issues being ignored. We have seen front and center what these issues are and they’re getting worse. Now is the time to fix them because when, not if but when, there’s another pandemic, hopefully a very long time from now, they’re going to come up again. So we better fix them now.

 

TS: Then the final thing I’d love for you to comment on is something you said in your TED Talk, which is that culture change is like birth. How is culture change like birth? Where are we, do you think, in the birthing process? Where are we here?

 

DS: We are in transition. Transition is the hardest part of birth, transition is painful and you want to give up. It’s hard, but I think that when we look at change in general, it’s the same way that we look at birth. It’s this daunting, seemingly impossible feat that we just can’t even imagine how we are going to get through, but we do. So it’s one contraction at a time. It’s one hard, uncomfortable conversation at a time. It’s one letter to a politician at a time. It’s one little step at a time. We’ll get through it, and at the end you get a baby or a new and better society.

 

TS: I’ve been speaking with midwife, registered pediatric nurse, mother of three, and the digital education director at Motherly Diana Spalding. Diana Spalding has written a new book with the Motherly team, it’s called The Motherly Guide to Becoming Mama: Redefining the Pregnancy, Birth, and Postpartum Journey. It’s a 500-plus page book that helps you prepare to be a mom. It takes you through a month-by-month pregnancy guide, then the stages of giving birth, and a guide to the fourth trimester. Really, it’s a book for our time. It, I think, embraces so much of what we need now and what we know now works for women.

So, Diana, thank you so much. I know you poured so much of your soul into the writing of that book. As a reader, I can feel it, so thank you.

 

DS: Thank you. Thank you. I will, no matter what comes next for me, writing this book will always be one of the greatest honors of my life. So I’m deeply grateful for the opportunity and for your team who was my doula through the entire experience. So thank you very much.

 

TS: Thank you for listening to Insights at the Edge. You can read a full transcript of today’s interview at soundstrue.com/podcast. If you’re interested, hit the subscribe button in your podcast app, and also if you feel inspired, head to iTunes and leave Insights at the Edge a review. I love getting your feedback, being in connection with you, and learning how we can continue to evolve and improve our program. Working together, I believe we can create a kinder and wiser world. SoundsTrue.com: waking up the world.

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